Charing Cross/NYE

[dpb]

While en route to the Eye for the NYE fireworks last night, I got to wondering about the points just before Charing Cross. Are these used at any time, as I don't remember ever seeing trains terminate at Charing Cross.

On a separate subject, just wanted to say thanks to the T/O who got me home last night. Not sure if it was an instruction, but he drove it sensibly, slowing right down as we came into the very busy stations, and even had to stop suddenly halfway into Warren St because of some drunk idiotic Italians, which in a packed train was interesting! All in all, got everyone home safely, cheers!

[Chris M]

Yes, the points are used regularly. Passengers are tipped out at Green Cross these days, but the trains reverse at the Charing Cross crossover. I think it's only used in times of disruption (two trains can be outstabled in the Charing Cross platforms as well) or engineering works, but there might be a service or two at the extremes of the day?

Trains also visit Charing Cross for filming purposes and I've been there twice on 1938 stock tours.

I believe that the station is or was used for some aspects of station staff training, and presumably drivers will need to visit with trains for road training purposes.

[DWS]

Jan 1, 2011 16:41:34 GMT Chris M said:

Yes, the points are used regularly. Passengers are tipped out at Green Cross these days, but the trains reverse at the Charing Cross crossover. I think it's only used in times of disruption (two trains can be outstabled in the Charing Cross platforms as well) or engineering works, but there might be a service or two at the extremes of the day?

Trains also visit Charing Cross for filming purposes and I've been there twice on 1938 stock tours.

I believe that the station is or was used for some aspects of station staff training, and presumably drivers will need to visit with trains for road training purposes.

dpb is posting about the crossover at Charing Cross Northern Line

[mrfs42]

I'm sure I've got something about SB-NB reversing there in an engineering TTN of many moons ago.

[Chris M]

Jan 1, 2011 16:47:20 GMT DWS said:

Jan 1, 2011 16:41:34 GMT Chris M said:

Yes, the points are used regularly. Passengers are tipped out at Green Cross these days, but the trains reverse at the Charing Cross crossover. I think it's only used in times of disruption (two trains can be outstabled in the Charing Cross platforms as well) or engineering works, but there might be a service or two at the extremes of the day?

Trains also visit Charing Cross for filming purposes and I've been there twice on 1938 stock tours.

I believe that the station is or was used for some aspects of station staff training, and presumably drivers will need to visit with trains for road training purposes.

dpb is posting about the crossover at Charing Cross Northern Line

Oops!
I'm so used to questions about Charing Cross being about the Jubilee Line station I didn't notice this was the Northern Line board. Sorry.

[railtechnician]

Jan 1, 2011 16:47:20 GMT DWS said:

Jan 1, 2011 16:41:34 GMT Chris M said:

Yes, the points are used regularly. Passengers are tipped out at Green Cross these days, but the trains reverse at the Charing Cross crossover. I think it's only used in times of disruption (two trains can be outstabled in the Charing Cross platforms as well) or engineering works, but there might be a service or two at the extremes of the day?

Trains also visit Charing Cross for filming purposes and I've been there twice on 1938 stock tours.

I believe that the station is or was used for some aspects of station staff training, and presumably drivers will need to visit with trains for road training purposes.

dpb is posting about the crossover at Charing Cross Northern Line

The trouble is that for some of us Charing Cross Northern will always be Strand! I fell into the same trap as Chris M but then quickly deleted a similar reply.

[Deleted]

Jan 1, 2011 16:41:34 GMT Chris M said:

Passengers are tipped out at Green Cross these days

Green Cross? You appear to have got yer cross and park muddled! ;D ;D

I'm dead sure I've seen a photo somewhere of a 95ts with a destination of Charing Cross. I'd imagine that it is only used when the service is seriously up the wall or engineering though, as you'd be holding up all the trains behind!

[ducatisti]

never seen them used. You can also see the remnants of the waterproof doors from WW2 there. Wonder if they could still be made to work? The shutters at Embankment look pretty tidy

[Deleted]

They are used. Easier to reverse south-north as trains can go straight back off the SB platform, but north-south is also possible. When I was a controller on the Northern some people were hesitant about using them because of fairly regular failures (points failing to go back usually).

[Deleted]

I'm assuming that by what you say it's a south-north single xover shunt signalled for moving up, changing ends, going over said crossover down into the SB?

[Deleted]

Emergency crossover north of the station, so south to north reversing involves changing ends in the SB platform and going back north under wrong road starter which is a colour light signal (passengers can be carried), north to south involves detraining, moving up to the limit of shunt, changing ends and coming back under shunt signal into the SB platform.

[North End]

Jan 1, 2011 16:53:40 GMT railtechnician said:

Jan 1, 2011 16:47:20 GMT DWS said:

dpb is posting about the crossover at Charing Cross Northern Line

The trouble is that for some of us Charing Cross Northern will always be Strand! I fell into the same trap as Chris M but then quickly deleted a similar reply.

The crossover at Charing Cross is used fairly frequently, either when there's a problem at Kennington, or to turn late running trains. The crossover may also be used north-to-south when a shuttle service runs Kennington to Charing Cross during service disruption.

I believe there's engineering work later this year, presumably to allow Crossrail work at TCR, which will see the service suspended between Mornington Crescent and Charing Cross over a couple of weekends. Whilst the MCR crossover will be available for passenger use (exceptionally rare), in this case Charing Cross will only be used by empty trains.

Whilst Charing Cross may have been Strand for many years, and that is the name still carried by the diagram in the IMR, the Northern Line station did of course open by the name of Charing Cross.

[railtechnician]

Jan 1, 2011 18:35:35 GMT ducatisti said:

never seen them used. You can also see the remnants of the waterproof doors from WW2 there. Wonder if they could still be made to work? The shutters at Embankment look pretty tidy

Those Strand floodgates would be 1939 vintage but AFAIK all the floodgates (pre WW2 and post WW2) have been locked open for many years since the threat of flooding was mitigated with the opening of the Thames Barrier.

[Deleted]

Jan 1, 2011 21:36:34 GMT North End said:

I believe there's engineering work later this year, presumably to allow Crossrail work at TCR, which will see the service suspended between Mornington Crescent and Charing Cross over a couple of weekends. Whilst the MCR crossover will be available for passenger use (exceptionally rare), in this case Charing Cross will only be used by empty trains.

Yes usually when reversing a train at MCR the driver is asked to detrain at Camden Town and if possible a train is run down the Charing X branch SB from the other branch while they are detraining. This speeds up the process somewhat.

[Deleted]

Jan 1, 2011 21:36:34 GMT North End said:

I believe there's engineering work later this year, presumably to allow Crossrail work at TCR, which will see the service suspended between Mornington Crescent and Charing Cross over a couple of weekends. Whilst the MCR crossover will be available for passenger use (exceptionally rare), in this case Charing Cross will only be used by empty trains.

Whilst Charing Cross may have been Strand for many years, and that is the name still carried by the diagram in the IMR, the Northern Line station did of course open by the name of Charing Cross.

Saturday 2nd and Sunday 3rd April is the first such closure, as of 23rd December, but of course we all know to take that with caution.

Out of interest, (cue WTT buffs) does have dates for when the Charing Cross and Mornington Crescent crossovers were last used? I know it was used on the 1938 tube stock 70th anniversary tour to send the 1938 stock back north. Has it been used since?

[North End]

Jan 1, 2011 22:11:05 GMT @ltmuseumguy said:

Jan 1, 2011 21:36:34 GMT North End said:

I believe there's engineering work later this year, presumably to allow Crossrail work at TCR, which will see the service suspended between Mornington Crescent and Charing Cross over a couple of weekends. Whilst the MCR crossover will be available for passenger use (exceptionally rare), in this case Charing Cross will only be used by empty trains.

Whilst Charing Cross may have been Strand for many years, and that is the name still carried by the diagram in the IMR, the Northern Line station did of course open by the name of Charing Cross.

Saturday 2nd and Sunday 3rd April is the first such closure, as of 23rd December, but of course we all know to take that with caution.

Out of interest, (cue WTT buffs) does have dates for when the Charing Cross and Mornington Crescent crossovers were last used? I know it was used on the 1938 tube stock 70th anniversary tour to send the 1938 stock back north. Has it been used since?

Charing Cross was used for a number of weekends around 1996.

I've seen Mornington Crescent used for a passenger service once, one evening last year when a Golders Green > Mornington Crescent > High Barnet train was run to balance up the stock at High Barnet Sidings for the next morning. It had to run via Mornington Crescent because the driver didn't have time to do anything else, and it was specifically run in service for the "snapshot" figures.

[North End]

Jan 1, 2011 21:48:27 GMT railtechnician said:

Jan 1, 2011 18:35:35 GMT ducatisti said:

never seen them used. You can also see the remnants of the waterproof doors from WW2 there. Wonder if they could still be made to work? The shutters at Embankment look pretty tidy

Those Strand floodgates would be 1939 vintage but AFAIK all the floodgates (pre WW2 and post WW2) have been locked open for many years since the threat of flooding was mitigated with the opening of the Thames Barrier.

The only operational floodgates are those on the Jubilee Line at the Canning Town tunnel portal, though I seem to recall some of the Bakerloo gates (Charing Cross?) were made operational in the 1990s for the tunnel strengthening works.

[Chris M]

Are there not floodgates on the DLR's Woolwich Arsenal tunnel?

[railtechnician]

Jan 1, 2011 22:53:18 GMT North End said:

Jan 1, 2011 21:48:27 GMT railtechnician said:

Those Strand floodgates would be 1939 vintage but AFAIK all the floodgates (pre WW2 and post WW2) have been locked open for many years since the threat of flooding was mitigated with the opening of the Thames Barrier.

The only operational floodgates are those on the Jubilee Line at the Canning Town tunnel portal, though I seem to recall some of the Bakerloo gates (Charing Cross?) were made operational in the 1990s for the tunnel strengthening works.

I would not be surprised to learn that the Bakerloo floodgates at Embankment and Waterloo could have been recommissioned as the Bakerloo tunnels were strengthened around the time that you mention. I did not become aware of the otherwise known tunnel weakness until after I stopped walking Embankment to Elephant & Castle both roads each night while commissioning the new SPTs in line with the late 1980s resignalling!

[Tom]

Jan 1, 2011 22:53:18 GMT North End said:

The only operational floodgates are those on the Jubilee Line at the Canning Town tunnel portal, though I seem to recall some of the Bakerloo gates (Charing Cross?) were made operational in the 1990s for the tunnel strengthening works.

I thought it was the Embankment floodgates; the Charing X one is at the North End of the SB Platform and it was the SB starter that was renumbered to a PNX signal for the possession.

[railtechnician]

Jan 1, 2011 21:36:34 GMT North End said:

Whilst Charing Cross may have been Strand for many years, and that is the name still carried by the diagram in the IMR, the Northern Line station did of course open by the name of Charing Cross.

Funny thing but I'm sure Strand was closed for several years before I began my LT Career, IIRC it reopened as Charing Cross circa 1979 and that was when I first used the station regularly (at the time I was working out of a room on the District platform at Embankment) and also when I worked there.

The main telephone exchange was located at Leicester Square and the main telephone cables reached Embankment via a main frame in the platform relay room which we knew as Strand MDF, thus the Northern platforms and Villiers Street station entrance were always 'Strand' to me. Of course the 1980s replacement for Leicester Square exchange was built at Embankment but for historical reasons the main cabling still went via Strand MDF though I would not be surprised to learn that it has been replaced as there have been several main cable uplifts since the mid 1980s and most of the old lead/paper telephone cables have been replaced with low smoke polyethylene types.

[Harsig]

Jan 2, 2011 7:12:52 GMT railtechnician said:

Funny thing but I'm sure Strand was closed for several years before I began my LT Career, IIRC it reopened as Charing Cross circa 1979 and that was when I first used the station regularly (at the time I was working out of a room on the District platform at Embankment) and also when I worked there.

It was. It closed in June 1973, re-opening with the Jubilee Line in May 1979. The closure was in connection with the building works associated with the creation of the combined interchange station of Charing Cross. From memory one of the new escalator shafts had to cut through the existing lift shafts and this made keeping the station open during the works an impracticable proposition.

[superteacher]

Have seen Charing Cross and Mornington Crescent crossovers used on several occasions (in both directions). Late running southbound trains are normally sent to Euston (city branch) rather than Mornington Crescent as this means they can be put into the Euston loop, and hence not block the line.

[North End]

Jan 2, 2011 1:36:14 GMT Tom said:

Jan 1, 2011 22:53:18 GMT North End said:

The only operational floodgates are those on the Jubilee Line at the Canning Town tunnel portal, though I seem to recall some of the Bakerloo gates (Charing Cross?) were made operational in the 1990s for the tunnel strengthening works.

I thought it was the Embankment floodgates; the Charing X one is at the North End of the SB Platform and it was the SB starter that was renumbered to a PNX signal for the possession.

I think you're right. Looking through the Traffic Controller's Diagrams, it's interesting to note that gates 5 & 6 at Embankment, and 9 & 10 at Waterloo, are shown as "Manually Operated", as opposed to "Out of Commission".

I do wonder how easily some of the WW2 gates on the Northern could be operated though, unlike the 1950s Special Tunnel Works gates which fold down from above the track, the WW2 gates slide across horizontally therefore I presume would be much easier to close.

[North End]

Jan 1, 2011 22:59:40 GMT Chris M said:

Are there not floodgates on the DLR's Woolwich Arsenal tunnel?

I've never heard mention of any floodgates anywhere on the DLR (but that's not to say someone doesn't know different..!).

I do know that the headhouse buildings at each end of the tunnel contain tunnel ventilation & substation equipment however.

[londonstuff]

Jan 2, 2011 14:10:14 GMT North End said:

Jan 2, 2011 1:36:14 GMT Tom said:

I thought it was the Embankment floodgates; the Charing X one is at the North End of the SB Platform and it was the SB starter that was renumbered to a PNX signal for the possession.

I think you're right. Looking through the Traffic Controller's Diagrams, it's interesting to note that gates 5 & 6 at Embankment, and 9 & 10 at Waterloo, are shown as "Manually Operated", as opposed to "Out of Commission".

I do wonder how easily some of the WW2 gates on the Northern could be operated though, unlike the 1950s Special Tunnel Works gates which fold down from above the track, the WW2 gates slide across horizontally therefore I presume would be much easier to close.

Would the floodgates be a flush close or would they just rest on the running rails and so still let a certain amount of water through?

[londonse]

Jan 2, 2011 14:10:14 GMT North End said:

Jan 2, 2011 1:36:14 GMT Tom said:

I do wonder how easily some of the WW2 gates on the Northern could be operated though, unlike the 1950s Special Tunnel Works gates which fold down from above the track, the WW2 gates slide across horizontally therefore I presume would be much easier to close.

I have not heard of special tunnel works, what was this?

Paul

[North End]

Jan 2, 2011 17:03:27 GMT @londonse said:

Jan 2, 2011 14:10:14 GMT North End said:

Jan 2, 2011 1:36:14 GMT Tom said:

I do wonder how easily some of the WW2 gates on the Northern could be operated though, unlike the 1950s Special Tunnel Works gates which fold down from above the track, the WW2 gates slide across horizontally therefore I presume would be much easier to close.

I have not heard of special tunnel works, what was this?

Paul

The network of floodgates installed around the City of London in the 1950s, protecting the rest of the system from flooding in the central area.

Gates were installed at Moorgate, Kennington, Tottenham Court Road (Northern), Liverpool Street (x4), Tottenham Court Road (Central), Russell Square, Green Park (Piccadilly), Green Park (Victoria).

The Liverpool Street gates were unusual in that they provided protection in both directions.

All of these gates remain in situ, however they all remain out of commission. I believe the Central Line gates are no longer interlocked with the signalling.

Also part of the works, an access/lift shaft and secure control room was provided at the unused station at Bull & Bush. The control room remains in situ, though heavily derelict.

[Deleted]

Jan 2, 2011 11:21:30 GMT superteacher said:

Have seen Charing Cross and Mornington Crescent crossovers used on several occasions (in both directions). Late running southbound trains are normally sent to Euston (city branch) rather than Mornington Crescent as this means they can be put into the Euston loop, and hence not block the line.

There are times when it's useful to be able to use both Euston and Mornington Crescent. As trains reverse via Euston and Kings Cross loop, if the train needs to lay over for a little while to make it's NB working that is a better bet - if it needs to go straight back north Mornington Crescent is fine, especially if it detrains at Camden Town while another SB train goes in front of it down the Charing Cross branch.

[londonse]

Jan 2, 2011 17:08:04 GMT North End said:

Jan 2, 2011 17:03:27 GMT @londonse said:

I have not heard of special tunnel works, what was this?

Paul

The network of floodgates installed around the City of London in the 1950s, protecting the rest of the system from flooding in the central area.

Gates were installed at Moorgate, Kennington, Tottenham Court Road (Northern), Liverpool Street (x4), Tottenham Court Road (Central), Russell Square, Green Park (Piccadilly), Green Park (Victoria).

The Liverpool Street gates were unusual in that they provided protection in both directions.

All of these gates remain in situ, however they all remain out of commission. I believe the Central Line gates are no longer interlocked with the signalling.

Also part of the works, an access/lift shaft and secure control room was provided at the unused station at Bull & Bush. The control room remains in situ, though heavily derelict.

Many thanks although I have seen some where that the Thames barrier made the floodgates redundant why are they still in situ and interlinked with the signalling system? I know someone will say cost as a reason it can't be that hard to remove them. I bet if there was a really good reason/incentive they would be gone like a shot.
Or is there another reason they are kept?

Paul