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Post by jardine01 on Aug 3, 2011 19:33:47 GMT
Was the Jubilee line in ATO in December 2010? I remember the signals being bagged up at West Hamstead on the 28th I think. It was pritty fast but it was hard to say if it was manually driven or ATO?
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Post by littlebrute on Aug 3, 2011 22:21:00 GMT
I was on a PM train too in September. I despised it.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 11, 2011 16:24:06 GMT
What about in December 2010? The other day at Finchely road the drivers door was open and it departed could that of been in PM or ATO?
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Post by superteacher on Aug 27, 2011 13:45:25 GMT
What about in December 2010? The other day at Finchely road the drivers door was open and it departed could that of been in PM or ATO? Couldn't have been ATO - the train can't start with the driver's door open. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2011 17:24:22 GMT
Right, you can operate an efficient service with manual driving. Whilst in Japan ive been in Japan ive seen that the Yamanote line has a signalling system called ATC (Automatic Train Control). The trains have a speedo in the cab with arrows that illuminate pointing to a certain speed: 45kmh, 55kmh, 65kmh, 75khm, 85kmh, 90kmh etc... I think it is a moving block system because as trains get closer the target speed as you could call it becomes lower and as they become further apart they get faster. If the target speed lowers and the driver doesnt lower the speed fast enough, the train slows down with a full service application to the target speed.
Maybe this is a solution to keeping manual driving aswell as maintaining an efficient frequent service?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 1, 2011 21:28:37 GMT
That sounds like a type of coded manual driving?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2011 0:08:18 GMT
LU doesn't seem to want t/ops driving on lines where ATO is the normal method of operation.
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Post by tecchy on Sept 2, 2011 13:03:06 GMT
Right, you can operate an efficient service with manual driving. Whilst in Japan ive been in Japan ive seen that the Yamanote line has a signalling system called ATC (Automatic Train Control). The trains have a speedo in the cab with arrows that illuminate pointing to a certain speed: 45kmh, 55kmh, 65kmh, 75khm, 85kmh, 90kmh etc... I think it is a moving block system because as trains get closer the target speed as you could call it becomes lower and as they become further apart they get faster. If the target speed lowers and the driver doesnt lower the speed fast enough, the train slows down with a full service application to the target speed. Maybe this is a solution to keeping manual driving aswell as maintaining an efficient frequent service? Almost the same as the Central Line CM. What are we defining as efficient? Journey time, time on platform, total journey time, smoother ride, less staff to save money? |
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Post by jardine01 on Sept 2, 2011 18:18:20 GMT
I dont understand because the central line is an ATO line but you see more trains in CM than you do on the Jubilee. In Protected Manual on the Jubilee you could still drive the train like ATO with full power and braking. Is there some kind of reason why the Jubilee line does not really drive in PM mode in passanger service? I am suprised I thought like Wembely Park to Stanmore could of been in PM on Sunday mornings for example? What happens after the 2012 games will trains start driving in PM here and then?
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Post by Chris M on Sept 3, 2011 11:11:29 GMT
It could just be that the Jubilee Line's ATO is much newer technology and therefore more reliable than the system used on the Central Line.
I don't understand why the Olmypics would make any difference to PM/ATO? If there is a need to drive in PM then they will drive in PM regardless of the date, if there ins't they wont.
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Post by jardine01 on Sept 3, 2011 12:02:33 GMT
Yes I see what you mean but wont drivers get sick of driving in ATO all the time? The Central line is a much bigger busier line and they drive in CM sometimes. Yes the Jubilee line ATO is much more advanced and modern than the Central line version. Is there some Jubilee line driver on this forum which could maybe tell us the arrangements for PM mode?
Thanks
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North End
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Post by North End on Sept 3, 2011 12:36:21 GMT
It could just be that the Jubilee Line's ATO is much newer technology and therefore more reliable than the system used on the Central Line. I don't understand why the Olmypics would make any difference to PM/ATO? If there is a need to drive in PM then they will drive in PM regardless of the date, if there ins't they wont. The Central Line system is much easier to drive manually. Basically on the Central Line, you receive a target speed, and then everything else is up to the Train Operator. If the target speed goes down, you have until the next block marker board or signal to reduce speed. I imagine the Victoria Line system now works in a broadly similar way. The TBTC system is much more prescriptive, and the Train Operator has to concentrate much more on the in-cab display rather than the road ahead. Meanwhile the ride quality provided by TBTC in ATO continues to be poor - on a manually driven line any Train Operator driving this badly would be getting spoken to by management. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2011 20:26:43 GMT
I think you'll find the TBTC system is actually quite a bit older in design than the Central Line ATO, with some minor tweaks to bring it up to date, like the train operators display !
Driven trains on the Jubilee seriously hold up the rest now if they have to travel out of service in PM mode. There is a fair amount of off-peak PM driving going on though north of Finchley due to the regular track walks going on up there, but it regulates OK because they all end up a bit slower, then catch up time in the tunnels later on.
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Post by jardine01 on Sept 4, 2011 13:00:43 GMT
Yesterday at Canning town i Saw a train departing Westbound with the drivers doors open so it must of been in PM mode he drove it simerlar to ATO full power off the mark.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2011 15:06:26 GMT
Yesterday at Canning town i Saw a train departing Westbound with the drivers doors open so it must of been in PM mode he drove it simerlar to ATO full power off the mark. Not hard to jam a CTBC all the way forwards... |
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Post by jardine01 on Sept 4, 2011 15:55:46 GMT
What I cant understand was the next station was North Grenwich are they allowed to drive in PM in the tunnels?
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Post by tecchy on Sept 4, 2011 18:56:38 GMT
If a company employs a new technology which is better than 'normal driver' I would think they would like to make sure they get their moneys worth.
It would be unlikely that there would be much PM usage (excluding out of service runs) on the Jubilee to be honest. The days when TBTC training was being phased in, drivers were told that you would rarely be using PM. That may have changed from 2 years ago.
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Post by jardine01 on Sept 4, 2011 19:50:10 GMT
However the preformance was almost the same as ATO full power. Really i think ATO on the Jubilee is simerar to the average driver where is the rapid acceration and braking not a patch on the victoria and Central lines. The driver door was open so it was probally because it was hot. How many out of service runs are on the Jubilee line out of intrest what do the drivers do on out of service runs?
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Post by tecchy on Sept 4, 2011 19:57:21 GMT
In the simplest possible way - Out of service because of a test train is one example. Out of service because of a defect (like loss of ATO) meaning driving to the nearest depot/ siding (depending on defect). Or there are routine moves, for example on the District line between 10.30 - 1.30am a few trains (I think around 5?!?) are out of service between Wimbledon and Parsons Green as per scheduled by the timetable.
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Post by jardine01 on Sept 4, 2011 20:34:57 GMT
Do out of service trains stop at the station still in TBTC or does it just go stright through?
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Sept 5, 2011 8:48:14 GMT
Do out of service trains stop at the station still in TBTC or does it just go stright through? That's a big question. It would require the controller not only to identify the train concerned but to be able to alter track codes for just that train and no other..... Sounds too difficult/dangerous to me, but I'm sure one of our members who are controllers will be along to say what's possible and what isn't. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 20:16:52 GMT
Simples in TBTC - assign it as an out of service train on the system, and the system does the rest and doesn't have to stop at all if there is nothing in front, but will slow down through platforms and will follow the train ahead in the same manner as it always does in TBTC. Why would that be dangerous?
Each train is told its own 'codes' in TBTC all the time, so its no problem at all for this system to be flexible like this, that is why DLR like it so much with there bi-directional go anywhere options they have. Shame the Jubilee didn't get the full capability of this feature.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Sept 5, 2011 21:51:06 GMT
Why would that be dangerous? It would be a risk if the controller was entering codes individually for stations to be passed. And that is the answer to the question: if codes are allocated by the system to a train for its whole journey there is no danger at all. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 6, 2011 11:12:00 GMT
Shame the Jubilee didn't get the full capability of this feature. Shame - especially as the provison for SD1 in GD0 and vice versa was all planned. (Bang road stuff, basically) |
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Post by br7mt on Sept 6, 2011 20:53:40 GMT
We have the ability to run trains non-stop or stopping but not enabling doors. I experienced the latter on a Platinum test run back in January when we were signing off trains fit for ATO running. IO pressed the two ATO Start buttons at SMD exit and didn't need to do anything else until the Dollis Hill migration boundary.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by jardine01 on Sept 7, 2011 6:22:19 GMT
Br7MT do trains run in PM say on early Sunday mornings? I cant see the point in ATO on early Sunday mornings as there might not be much passanger demand.
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Post by br7mt on Sept 7, 2011 10:11:13 GMT
Trains are never scheduled to run in PM at all. They will only ever run in PM due to suspension of ATO e.g. staff trackside, or if there is a fault with the ATO equipment on the train. Trains are allowed to run in PM mode on test paths if required for fault finding.
The Jubilee Line is an ATO railway and LU have taken the decision that there is sufficient suspensions of ATO for PM driving skills to be maintained.
Regards,
Dan
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Sept 7, 2011 13:54:01 GMT
Taking this from a slightly broader angle, is it likely that in the future as the network is modernised all to a comparable level, opperational practices on each line will return to being more standardised then, say, things are atm?
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Post by jardine01 on Sept 7, 2011 14:34:48 GMT
br7mt Its strange though that the Central line is allowed to run in CM off peak and the central line is a much bigger line. I know the Central line uses a different ATO system to the Jubilee. I have seen a few trains run in PM with the drivers door open is this allowed? I bet allot of drivers on the Jubilee have transfered to a manually driven line. I do like ATO but if you ask me it is not the same as driving manually!
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Post by br7mt on Sept 7, 2011 19:48:37 GMT
I wouldn't call it strange at all - ATO should give us a very consistent performance day in day out. It also plays to one of the natural strengths of SelTrac in this instance, which is its ability to automatically regulate the service.
Drivers don't actually need to run with the cab door open, the cab air conditioning units are pretty good on 96TS. You can open the doors in PM mode, but they are interlocked in ATO mode to prevent the risk of a driver leaving the cab while it is operating in auto.
I understand your point about ATO being a lot harsher than manual driving and it will obviously put a greater strain on the drive train, but to be honest the Central Line 92TS has not exactly been trouble free even with manual driving!
Regards,
Dan
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