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Post by jardine01 on Mar 16, 2011 15:57:29 GMT
When the 1995 stock goes ATO will they increase the speed from the current maximum of 45mph? I know i might of asked this question before but when the Northern line goes ATO will the trains run on higher prefomance because somebody told me that once it goes ATO they are still going to run on 60% power is it me or does that not make any sense?
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Post by plasmid on Mar 16, 2011 19:25:22 GMT
Acceleration improvements probably won't make much of a difference on the Northern Line as most of it is curves. There will undoubtedly be some top speed improvements all around, combined with new signalling allowing the trains to run closer together will bring the improvements.
Also it may be that the Northern Line will become one way by 2018 at the earliest to further improve the throughput of trains.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 3, 2011 14:02:48 GMT
Is there anywhere on the Northern line where you could reach 50mph? Although given the rather sluggish preformance of these trains it must be very rare if it did
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Post by superteacher on Aug 3, 2011 14:14:29 GMT
Is there anywhere on the Northern line where you could reach 50mph? Although given the rather sluggish preformance of these trains it must be very rare if it did Used to be able to exceed that from East Finchley to Highgate before they put in the speed controls. Highgate SB platform used to be thick with brake dust! Southbound from High Barnet to Totteridge is a good candidate too. I was on a 1959 stock not long before they were withdrawn, and it was certainly "going for it" down the gradient towards Totteridge. You can also get up some speed from Angel to Kings Cross on the northbound. Golders Green to Hampstead is another possibility. Was on a 58 stock once - heaven knows what speed we were doing, but there was no slowing down until after the crossover just north of Hampstead. |
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 3, 2011 14:27:12 GMT
Once TBTC is installed wont they need to increase speed to say 50mph in the open sections?
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Aug 3, 2011 15:17:00 GMT
Further to Superteacher....my friend tells me he saw 60mph on the speedo of a 38 stock he was driving on a S/B ECS through Brent station in the 70s.....
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 3, 2011 16:37:18 GMT
Further to Superteacher....my friend tells me he saw 60mph on the speedo of a 38 stock he was driving on a S/B ECS through Brent station in the 70s..... Pretty good going, as i didn't think '38 Stock were fitted with speedo's? |
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
Posts: 1,480
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Post by slugabed on Aug 3, 2011 17:12:37 GMT
Further to Superteacher....my friend tells me he saw 60mph on the speedo of a 38 stock he was driving on a S/B ECS through Brent station in the 70s..... Pretty good going, as i didn't think '38 Stock were fitted with speedo's? What do I know? I wasn't there. I rely on the testimony of a man who worked with them day in,day out for years as Guard and Driver,and was awarded a commendation for bravery by LT. |
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 3, 2011 19:37:02 GMT
The 1959 stock were real trains which were proper solid workhorse trains the 1995 stock is ok but lacks appeal and they were quicker off the mark than a 95 stock how is this?
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Post by superteacher on Aug 3, 2011 19:48:13 GMT
The 1959 stock were real trains which were proper solid workhorse trains the 1995 stock is ok but lacks appeal and they were quicker off the mark than a 95 stock how is this? THe 95 stock is currently toned down. It will be uprated upon introduction of ATO. |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Aug 4, 2011 18:05:49 GMT
The 1959 stock were real trains which were proper solid workhorse trains the 1995 stock is ok but lacks appeal and they were quicker off the mark than a 95 stock how is this? THe 95 stock is currently toned down. It will be uprated upon introduction of ATO. This may be a false perception, but I get the feeling the 95 stock has, recently, been slightly less toned down. Places where the trains used to do 29 mph, we now seem to more regularly get 31-32 mph! I asked about this and was told modifications have been made as part of the TBTC modifications, but I've no idea if there's any truth to it. |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Aug 4, 2011 18:07:50 GMT
Once TBTC is installed wont they need to increase speed to say 50mph in the open sections? At present the only places where 45 mph could realistically be exceeded are High Barnet to Totteridge SB, East Finchley to Finchley Central NB, East Finchley to Highgate SB, Highgate to Archway SB (but not with the speed-controlled signals), Hendon Central to Colindale NB, Hendon Central to Brent Cross SB, Golders Green to Brent Cross SB, and maybe Golders Green to Hampstead SB. In all cases the speed limit is no more than 45 mph. |
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Post by br7mt on Aug 4, 2011 18:12:39 GMT
Line speed is dictated by the track formation, gauge and kinematic envelope of the rolling stock traversing it. So unless serious work is undertaken then those speed limits remain.
95TS will not get a traction upgrade until the first TBTC section is switched on - the the trains will then operate at their original design performance in the TBTC areas only.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 4, 2011 18:51:44 GMT
Why cant they just turn the power up on the 1995 stock to say 70% power like the 1996 stock was? When you think the 1959 stock was quicker off the mark than a 1995 stock. But even when they are finally unrestricted what will the preformance be like?
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 4, 2011 18:51:58 GMT
Interesting; a comment in Tube Trains Under London about the 1959 stock relates that its suspension wasn't satisfactory at higher speeds. It goes on to say that this was rectified upon transfer to the Northern line, where speeds on the Edgware and High Barnet sections was similar to that between Hammersmith and Acton Town.
I do wonder at times if the speed limits on open sections have just a bit higher a margin of safety than is necessary.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 4, 2011 18:57:39 GMT
I think before TBTC comes in they are going to replace the track and even remodel some parts of track but the likes of the curves in the tunnels. I cant see anything changing there unless they spend millions strightening the tunnels which would cost millions. when is the TBTC works starting has it started yet?
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 5, 2011 10:14:37 GMT
Why could they not just up the power to 70% power untill TBTC?
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Post by plasmid on Aug 5, 2011 17:11:31 GMT
TBTC works started ages ago jardine01. They just haven't been noticeable because of the lack of weekend closures.
I'm afraid turning up the power won't make much of a difference compared with the Jubilee Line. The Northern line will be about how close trains can get to each other rather than speed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2011 18:58:15 GMT
IMO gravity plays a part in this too. The section from Golders Green to Camden on the south is pretty straight and its on one big falling gradient because Haverstock Hill is so steep.
If a driver didnt have to brake to keep the train at linespeed, would it be possible to get a much increased speed down there?
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Post by br7mt on Aug 5, 2011 21:02:55 GMT
That's a good point actually - don't forget that the fixed block system will also limit top speed (and to some extent acceleration) so as not to compromise signal overlaps. With TBTC moving block you actually get a benefit from having the higher traction performance.
Also, the Northern Line tunnels are pretty tight in places. When 95TS was introduced they had to shave a small amount off the tunnel rings in certain places with tight clearances so that they could fit! Some of the tunnel sections were enlarged after it was absorbed in London Transport, so the tunnel cross section isn't circular either in places. All this affects the speed because the kinematic envelope must be such that it doesn't overlap with the tunnel cross section.
What I'm trying to point out is that there are many factors that affect train performance, and the Northern Line has them by the bucket load.
Installation is well under way and a 95TS train is now at the Highgate Test Facility to allow initial software development to take place.
Regards,
Dan
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2011 7:19:33 GMT
>>Some of the tunnel sections were enlarged after it was absorbed in London Transport<<
The small CSLR tunnels on the Bank branch were enlarged by the Underground Group in 1923-25, well before LT was established.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2011 21:50:27 GMT
Going back to the original question, yes, the line speed will be increased on the Northern when TBTC is introduced.
There will be some track improvement works, but the biggest amount of speed improvement will come from taking advantage of the current track / tunnel alignments without having to take into account the speed limit imposed by the current signalling's calculated overlaps.
The line's new highest speed, which will apply in a number of different places, will be 96km/h and this is currently being worked into the SelTrac Safety Distance calculations for inclusion in the VCC data.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 8, 2011 22:34:57 GMT
So roughly 60mph then? Not bad, not bad...
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Post by jardine01 on Oct 24, 2011 19:02:38 GMT
96km/h so around 59-60mph not bad but does anybody know which section this will apply to?
Lately the Northern line seems to be a bit faster than normal one 95 seemed to be much quicker off the mark than normal. TBTC work seems to be making good progress the loop cable has been installed on most of the Northern line. However I don't think it is on the Edgeware branch just yet.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Oct 25, 2011 11:14:55 GMT
96km/h so around 59-60mph not bad but does anybody know which section this will apply to? Lately the Northern line seems to be a bit faster than normal one 95 seemed to be much quicker off the mark than normal. TBTC work seems to be making good progress the loop cable has been installed on most of the Northern line. However I don't think it is on the Edgeware branch just yet. Cable installation is now complete from Stockwell to Morden, and north of Highgate. The rest is in various stages of installation, with little work started on the Edgware branch yet (concrete bases for axle counter boxes and loop boxes, little else). Shortly signage will start to be installed, though bagged up I believe. Test running is expected to start in engineering hours between Morden and Stockwell soon. As for 95 stock being faster, my perception is the trains seem ever so slightly quicker than they once were, but definitely nothing more than that. And the slight improvement may just be a false perception on my part! |
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 25, 2011 11:31:29 GMT
Because the 95TS has been programmed to become slightly more powerful every day?
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Post by jardine01 on Oct 25, 2011 16:37:10 GMT
In a way I think installation has been quite quick compared to the Jubilee line TBTC upgrade. If they are testing TBTC from Modern to Stockwell soon when will it be in passenger service? I believe the first section to go ATO is the High Barnet branch I believe.
I do think the 95 stock is a little faster but not like performance of the 1992 and 1996 stocks.
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Post by br7mt on Oct 25, 2011 21:18:13 GMT
It's not the trains as far as I know - we haven't done anything to them!
Regards,
Dan
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2011 22:10:01 GMT
Haven't noticed any difference. Just amazed how lethargic 1995 feels now compared to current Jubilee!!
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Post by jardine01 on Oct 26, 2011 7:20:34 GMT
Really the 1996 in limited state was still quicker than a 95 stock. I guess when TBTC is switched on they will be quicker however I think it will have more power at higher speeds and not at lower speeds. Although the 1995 stock has different motors than a 96 and has 4/6 cars motored the Jubilee only has 4/7 motored.
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