Applying the Westinghouse before the terminus

[Deleted]

I've often seen references to 1938 Tube Stock motormen making a Westinghouse application before the terminus. Why was this necessary?

[Deleted]

The Westinghouse has to be tested at the previous station to the terminus, so we test it at Wimbledon Park and Paddington on the Wimbleware services.

This is because the other brake, the EP is not fail safe, so if that suddenly fails, you're relying on the Westinghouse to stop you! You don't want to be approaching a terminus platform and suddenly find the Westinghouse don't work either!

Incidentally, I should say that the Westinghouse IS fail safe, so even if it didn't apply as gently as you'd prefer, it will still stop you if you apply the emergency brakes.

(I stand to be corrected by my mentors... As they'll confirm, C stocks and Westinghouses are not my favourite topic! ;D)

[Deleted]

So how is the Westinghouse applied then? I've never noticed any obvious signs of it in use...

[Deleted]

AlanL said:

(I stand to be corrected by my mentors... As they'll confirm, C stocks and Westinghouses are not my favourite topic! ;D)

As you know Alan, Westinghouse doesnt always work as it is supposed to does it? lol

[trainopd78]

TheOneKEA said:

So how is the Westinghouse applied then? I've never noticed any obvious signs of it in use...

I could give you a "blow by blow" (sorry - couldn't resist ;D) account but before we can tell you how it's applied, its probably best to know how it works.

Give this a whirl www.railway-technical.com/air-brakes.html This described it much better than I can here.

[Admin Team]

trainopd78 said:

I could give you a "blow by blow" (sorry - couldn't resist ;D) account but before we can tell you how it's applied, its probably best to know how it works.

Give this a whirl www.railway-technical.com/air-brakes.html This described it much better than I can here.

That reference is, of course, a great explanation of how the brake works and is spot on - given it's author (not I, I hasten to add!) I'd expect nothing less.

But, I think, really what was being asked is the practicalities of it, and this is where 'we've' all got our own pet routines.

The OneKea really sums up it's use (when done reasonably accurately!) in that he hasn't noticed it.

Personally, I try to use it routinely as a 'service' brake - that is using it most of the time - to aid my own proficiency in it's use. I'll try to explain one of the methods I've heard of and tried:

1) Place the CTBC to the 'Lap' position at a point where motors will no longer be required.
2) Put the CTBC to 'Service' for about three seconds and return to 'Lap'
3) At this point you *should* feel the brake having an effect
4) From this point you add further short 'blows' (moving the CTBC from 'Lap' to 'Service' and back) as your feelings dictate.
5) Hopefully, this will cause you to stop in the desired place.

It's not a precise art - none of the variants I know of are - and much depends on your 'empathy' with the train.

But if you've not detected it's use (and really there's no reason why you should) it's either a) not being used or b) the driver knows his/her limits or c) he/she's good.

Alternatively, if you sit just behind the bulkhead and hear a muttered 'oh sh*t' - you'll know it hasn't quite gone to plan.........

[Deleted]

District said:

Alternatively, if you sit just behind the bulkhead and hear a muttered 'oh sh*t' - you'll know it hasn't quite gone to plan.........

Yep, been there, done that ;D

[Igelkotten]

Jim said:

Yep, been there, done that ;D

Haven't we all...

The look on your face the first time you manage to slide past a station on an uphill grade is rather silly.


/Igelkotten

[Deleted]

District said:

That reference is, of course, a great explanation of how the brake works and is spot on - given it's author (not I, I hasten to add!) I'd expect nothing less.

But, I think, really what was being asked is the practicalities of it, and this is where 'we've' all got our own pet routines.

The OneKea really sums up it's use (when done reasonably accurately!) in that he hasn't noticed it.

Personally, I try to use it routinely as a 'service' brake - that is using it most of the time - to aid my own proficiency in it's use. I'll try to explain one of the methods I've heard of and tried:

1) Place the CTBC to the 'Lap' position at a point where motors will no longer be required.
2) Put the CTBC to 'Service' for about three seconds and return to 'Lap'
3) At this point you *should* feel the brake having an effect
4) From this point you add further short 'blows' (moving the CTBC from 'Lap' to 'Service' and back) as your feelings dictate.
5) Hopefully, this will cause you to stop in the desired place.

It's not a precise art - none of the variants I know of are - and much depends on your 'empathy' with the train.

But if you've not detected it's use (and really there's no reason why you should) it's either a) not being used or b) the driver knows his/her limits or c) he/she's good.

Alternatively, if you sit just behind the bulkhead and hear a muttered 'oh sh*t' - you'll know it hasn't quite gone to plan.........

Thanks Dave, and thanks trainopd78 for that link.

I'd not noticed anything on Dave's website about braking, so I wanted to ask about it.

[Deleted]

trainopd78 said:

I could give you a "blow by blow" (sorry - couldn't resist ;D) account but before we can tell you how it's applied, its probably best to know how it works.

And its VERY important not too put too much on, as you can only release the whole lot, rather than a little bit!

Jim said:

Yep, been there, done that ;D

Ah yes, i have been with someone (on more that one occasion!) when they said something to that effect! ;D

[Deleted]

Met said:

And its VERY important not too put too much on, as you can only release the whole lot, rather than a little bit!

Not strictly true... Many drivers can only use the brake to stop accurately using the 'partial release' method. Personally I prefer to try and stop on the mark without having to release anything... Much more professional! ;D

As you know Alan, Westinghouse doesnt always work as it is supposed to does it? lol

LOL! Yeah, that was an excellent example of how a Westinghouse can be slightly temperamental! The look on your face as we slid past the OPO equipment was priceless! ;D Good job you were there to give me the right!

[trainopd78]

I also spend a lot of time using the Westinghouse in preference to the Rheo. I find that I can actually stop the train far smoother using the westinghouse than a C stock rheo ever could.

The way of telling is by sitting in a motor car and you'll (hopefully) notice the cylinder guage go up, then up a bit more, and it'll climb in increments. With EP, you tend to find the guage will be more erratic and in the motor cars will be at zero most of the time until just before the final stop as the rheo is doing the work on these cars.

the other thing is that you'll notice the smell of warm brake blocks

Oh yes, the driver will also be wearing bicycle clips. ;D

My personal method actually depends on the train. We all have our "markers" on the track that we use to do our first blow.
My first blow is 2 - 3 secs (dependent on the train) back to lap, wait and see what happens. Then further blows of approx 1 sec (once again dependent of train) with a pause between each blow to wait for it to apply on all 6 cars (waiting for the air on the rear car to work its way forward to atmosphere) Then Hope!! There is a certain amount of skill involved.

There are certain trains i'll get on the mark everytime and others where you need certain parts of your anatomy to be bigger and are harder to control. Trial and error is the key, you soon get to know how good your train is!!

Question to my Driving colleagues:
Where are your favourite Westinghouse places? Mine has to be High St. Ken Inner rail.

[Admin Team]

trainopd78 said:

Question to my Driving colleagues:
Where are your favourite Westinghouse places? Mine has to be High St. Ken Inner rail.

Yup, I'd agree with that, though I enjoy Putney Bridge e/b (I hold the train to the 30 limit over the bridge, then reduce it to 20 for the platform and - hopefully - a nice gentle stop 'on the mark' ensues.....)

Parsons Green e/b too - the downhill grade there makes it a nice challenge!

[solidbond]

AlanL said:

Not strictly true... Many drivers can only use the brake to stop accurately using the 'partial release' method. Personally I prefer to try and stop on the mark without having to release anything... Much more professional! ;D

As anyone who has been on a C stock course with me should know, as Met Apprentice says, it is impossible to get a partial release of the Westinghouse brake The only time you get a partial release is if you CHEAT and are using the EP to hold the air in the brake cylinders ;D

[solidbond]

trainopd78 said:

Question to my Driving colleagues:
Where are your favourite Westinghouse places? Mine has to be High St. Ken Inner rail.

I agree with that - although I preferred it when I was on the Circle, as I didn't get held at the inner homer there when I was on a Circle. I always use Southfields and Wimbledon Park on the W/B, as I always find that to get the best out of the Westinghouse it should be used at speed ;D ;D (Fulham Broadway E/B is a good one as well - now that's a challenge )

[Deleted]

AlanL said:

LOL! Yeah, that was an excellent example of how a Westinghouse can be slightly temperamental! The look on your face as we slid past the OPO equipment was priceless! ;D Good job you were there to give me the right!

Well i couldnt look at my face at the time, would be an art if i could lol! But yes it did freak me!

[Deleted]

solidbond said:

As anyone who has been on a C stock course with me should know, as Met Apprentice says, it is impossible to get a partial release of the Westinghouse brake The only time you get a partial release is if you CHEAT and are using the EP to hold the air in the brake cylinders ;D

LOL, I've never hidden the fact that I know very little about C stocks! ;D (I blame my C stock instructor, personally! )

Question to my Driving colleagues:
Where are your favourite Westinghouse places? Mine has to be High St. Ken Inner rail.

Yep, I also like that one, providing the signaller clears ED3 in time... The last few times I've came round there, he's brought me almost to a stand, therefor spoiling my Westinghouse fun!

My other favourite places are all the stations between Putney bridge and Wimbledon (but not including those two... A westinghouse application whilst travelling at 10mph just seems a bit pointless!)

[Admin Team]

solidbond said:

I agree with that - although I preferred it when I was on the Circle, as I didn't get held at the inner homer there when I was on a Circle. I always use Southfields and Wimbledon Park on the W/B, as I always find that to get the best out of the Westinghouse it should be used at speed ;D ;D (Fulham Broadway E/B is a good one as well - now that's a challenge )

Surprised you can remember how to drive a C Stock other than between ECT and PG - oh, and on occasions EBDY too I suppose!

[Colin]

solidbond said:

As anyone who has been on a C stock course with me should know, as Met Apprentice says, it is impossible to get a partial release of the Westinghouse brake The only time you get a partial release is if you CHEAT and are using the EP to hold the air in the brake cylinders ;D

It's amazing how many driver's think otherwise. I remember that lesson well. It must have the balloons on the line day, as I was paying more attention due to said mishap!!

[Colin]

AlanL said:

My other favourite places are all the stations between Putney bridge and Wimbledon (but not including those two... A westinghouse application whilst travelling at 10mph just seems a bit pointless!)

Practising the Westinghouse at 10 mph is actually a good thing. If you have to drive from the rear cab in reverse (with another driver at the front of course!) - because of a defect, for example - the EP brake has to be cut out as it as the retarders don't work when going backwards. As part of this (complicated) proceedure the train is driven at no more than 10 mph and the westinghouse is the only brake available. You will find that the technique at 10 mph is very different to 30 or 40 mph - certainly your passenger's will notice! For this reason I like to use it at Putney Bridge Westbound where there is a 10mph speed limit.

As for favorite stations to use it at - Bayswater Eastbound/Outer rail is always entertaining!! ;D

[q8]

Not strictly westinghouse but do stocks without the W/house brake (I.E Westcode only) still have retarders fitted?

[piccadillypilot]

Q8 said:

Not strictly westinghouse but do stocks without the W/house brake (I.E Westcode only) still have retarders fitted?

No, they use a slip/slide protection system that measures the speed of one axle against another.

Please don't ask what happens if both axles are turning at the same speed, or not all. The short answer is "Flatted wheels".

[q8]

Iknow it's personal choice but I wold have thought the ideal place to test the Westinghouse on a C stock would be Southfields in both directions. In my day a damn good place for westinghouse test was Stepney Green again in either direction. (Yes I know you don't go that far east with District C stock)

[Deleted]

In actual fact I have once taken a C stock right through to Barking before!
There were huge probs at Edgware Road and was initially asked to divert to Mansion House (a regular occurance when ERD goes down). As I arrived at Blackfriars, the controller called me up and asked me to ring him on the autophone before departing. This I did, and he asked me if I would mind taking the train to Barking and stabling it for a stock balance!
Tried Westinghouse applications at almost every station!

Had two excellent C stocks today (and you thought I'd never utter the words 'excellent' and 'C stock' in the same sentence!)... Westinghouse at almost every station on the mark! Boosted my confidence in the old C stocks no end!!! ;D

[solidbond]

AlanL said:

Had two excellent C stocks today (and you thought I'd never utter the words 'excellent' and 'C stock' in the same sentence!)... Westinghouse at almost every station on the mark! Boosted my confidence in the old C stocks no end!!! ;D

no problems with MCBs then? ;D ;D ;D

[Deleted]

solidbond said:

No problems with MCBs then? ;D ;D ;D

hahaha! He would only have problems with MCBs if there was a certain stock instructor on board!

All i say, is Alan, i know what its like!

[Tom]

Met said:

All i say, is Alan, i know what its like!

Did he perform his party piece with you too then? ;D

[Deleted]

Tom said:

Did he perform his party piece with you too then? ;D

Not exactly, but more than one MCB was tripped on more than one occasion!

[Phil]

Bumped by Phil to make it visible again.

[kf9vp]

Hello everybody-

My name is Richard and this is my first post to this board, although I've been reading for a few months. I live near Chicago and am interested in subways and rapid transit in general, and London's in particular (but I haven't been to London yet!) I am a volunteer at the Illinois Railway Museum in Union, Illinois, where we have a great deal of Chicago equipment, and I am quite familiar with the inner workings of such equipment. This is my topic of greatest interest in rail equipment- propulsion, braking, and control.

Which brings me back to this discussion of air brakes. Except for Chicago, all US cities' subway/rapid transit systems use blended air and dynamic braking. (Chicago does not use air brakes because of its smaller, lighter cars and the coincidence of switching to an all-electric braked PCC fleet which were recycled from streetcars. They just continued the no-air-brake precedent when they purchased new cars.) By blended, I mean that both always apply, and the motorman generally does not have a choice about the proportions of the blend. And before dynamic use was universal, air brakes were used by themselves, regularly stopping 8-car trains in Chicago and elsewhere and 10-car trains in New York.

I know that for trams in Europe, dynamic braking was used from early on. Is the same true for London Underground trains? Is that why most of you drivers seem to think of the dynamic/rheostatic brake as easy or "habitual" to use, and the air brake as something that requires a greater mental effort? Also, from the descriptions given earlier, it sounds as if your brake doesn't have graduated release. Is that right? This is all a little foreign (no pun intended) to my US experience.

This is a most interesting board, and although I don't think I'll have much input, I do read it almost every day with relish. I realize that super-technical details are only of interest to a certain segment of readers, but I certainly am one of those. I enjoy whatever you guys post, especially the schematic/wiring diagrams of the equipment. Incidentally, if anyone here is a propulsion/control freak like I am :-), I'd be happy to provide what wiring diagrams and associated information I have on Chicago equipment, by private e-mail of course.

Thanks for the space to post,
Richard
Illinois Railway Museum volunteer, Trolley Bus Dept. and Electric Car Dept., Rapid Transit Div.