Platform 5 at Camden Town

[navaleye]

The mysterious unused/unfinished has been of interest for a while. This is what I know:

> There is a single bi directional track

>There are sealed off entrances from passenger areas all over the station including near the spiral staircase. This suggests it was an original feature of the station It can still be accessed via staff room on the Edgware platform.

>My theory is that it was a feature of the original Hampstead Railway but discarded for some reason.

Questions:

Can anyone confirm it's purpose and it's history? I cant just be a tunnel or why build so many access points to it?

How far does the track go and in what direction?

Thanks

Navaleye

[DWS]

Apr 22, 2011 14:04:26 GMT @navaleye said:

The mysterious unused/unfinished has been of interest for a while. This is what I know:

> There is a single bi directional track

>There are sealed off entrances from passenger areas all over the station including near the spiral staircase. This suggests it was an original feature of the station It can still be accessed via staff room on the Edgware platform.

>My theory is that it was a feature of the original Hampstead Railway but discarded for some reason.

Questions:

Can anyone confirm it's purpose and it's history? I cant just be a tunnel or why build so many access points to it?

How far does the track go and in what direction?

Thanks

Navaleye

Camden Town when built had lifts this would explained the blocked up tunnels near the emergency stairs.

[Deleted]

There were three lifts at Camden Town which were replaced by two escalators in the late-1920s (exact date eludes me at the moment).

As far as I can remember, the Running Station Master's office used to be in the base of the lift shaft - that is when many crew reliefs took place at Camden Town, but the only spare crews were the PNRs from either Golders Green, Euston or East Finchley. I have at the back of my mind that High Barnet may have provided a PNR crew from time to time, but am open to correction on that.

PNR - Physical Needs Relief (i.e. going to the loo!).

There is (was!) also access to the Camden Town deep level shelter, but this has been bricked up for a long time now.

[railtechnician]

Apr 22, 2011 14:45:21 GMT @reganorak said:

There were three lifts at Camden Town which were replaced by two escalators in the late-1920s (exact date eludes me at the moment).

As far as I can remember, the Running Station Master's office used to be in the base of the lift shaft - that is when many crew reliefs took place at Camden Town, but the only spare crews were the PNRs from either Golders Green, Euston or East Finchley. I have at the back of my mind that High Barnet may have provided a PNR crew from time to time, but am open to correction on that.

PNR - Physical Needs Relief (i.e. going to the loo!).

There is (was!) also access to the Camden Town deep level shelter, but this has been bricked up for a long time now.

I'm sure I've mentioned this before, I was told years ago by a Camden Town supervisor that during the 1960s and 1970s once a month a civil servant would turn up in his pinstripe suit with bowler hat, briefcase and umbrella and unlock a door, disappearing into the disused area for a few hours. He suggested that there were actually two disused platforms, abandoned when the two lines were joined together with multiple junctions but I have never been able to corroborate that. AFAIK all the deep level shelters were connected to the tube network originally.

[navaleye]

The deep level shelters had access from the nearby stations for sure. Thinking about further this could well be the original running line north towards hampstead before the current junction was installed. There may well have been a period when both were in use. The the lifts were taken out of service, it would have been necessary to build new entrances to the new platforn and escalator shaft.

Just a thought any comments?

[Deleted]

I'm sure this relates to the deep shelter, as they were indeed inspected regularly (and even by me, unofficially, in the late-1970s, just before Security Archives took it on). However, I'm not disputing any disused bits of tunnel for the 1924 reconstruction as I simply don't know.

The escalators at Camden Town were commissioned 7/10/29.

[Geoffram]

There were only four platforms when the station was built. If you look at the road layout above, Camden High Street splits into a Y-shaped formation: one is Chalk Farm Road, the other Kentish Town road, and when the line was being constructed between 1905 and 1907, all underground lines had to be underneath the streets above and not stray into any private property. This explains why a lot of the 1907 stations had the same pattern, with the lines and platforms underneath the streets; stairs up and a bridge either left or right over the lines to the base of the liftshaft which rose to the booking hall situated on the side of the road above.
At Camden Town, the street space above was limited and the north- and southbound lines had to be situated above each other in the shape of a V. The original exit and liftshaft is situated at the crux of the V at the southern end of the station: it's the only point on the station where you can still reach all four platforms relatively easily. The original railway, which ran from Charing Cross to Golders Green and Archway (present name) split/joined just south of the station. Going south, the present Barnet branch curves to the left, and then the tunnel enlarges where there is a large junction, now a 4-way, which was the original southbound junction of the two branches. Going north, there is a similar junction, also now a 4-way, just south of the station, which was where the northbound lines split. You can see it if you stand on the Edqware platform and look south, but don't get confused with the line that joins from the right: this was put in during the 1924 reconstruction.
There is a fifth tunnel, a Deep-level shelter built more than thirty years after the line first opened. This is described in detail here www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/sites/c/camden_town/index.html.
This article mentions that the tunnel was 'connected to the Northern Line platforms at Camden Town' but not exactly where.
What is surprising is that, as Reganorak states, they didn't complete the escalators until 5 years after the CCEHR and the CSLR had been joined up. This must have put a great deal of pressure on the lifts.

[Chris M]

Was Camden Town itself a major traffic generator in those days? If not then the lifts would probably not have had to deal with the majority of station users who would interchange below ground.

[Deleted]

All I can offer to Chris M's question is that up to WW2, some of the non-stopping patterns on what had become the Northern Line included some trains non-stopping Camden Town (and other stations).

Not very informative, but there you go.

Edit:

Just had a dig through my timetable archive notes and in 1925 Camden Town was included in trains that non-stopped Goodge Street/Mornington Crescent/Camden Town (non-stop code D). There were also trains that just non-stopped Camden Town (code N).

My notes say that by November 1933, non-stopping had been much reduced with only Kennington and Mornington Crescent in the central area and (variously and not necessarily all stations by every train) Brent, Hendon Central, Colindale and Burnt Oak by just a few trains in the stix. Non-stopping Brent was abolished from 23/8/36 when the loop was decommissioned.

Apart from Mornington Crescent (where Edgware line trains non-stopped until October 1966), all Northern Line non-stopping (or what remained of it) was abolished with WTT No.163 of 20/5/40.

[navaleye]

Interesting points. I have done some more detective work. If you take a train from Mornington Crescent northbound you see a tunnel with a red signal off to the right. I originally thought that this must be part of the "new" junction, but it can't be its too far south. So where does it go?

Its safe to assume that the platforms at Camden Town are in the original tunnels. The passageway to the bottom of the escalator shaft is a 1920s addition.

I have looked at the original lower lift landing its possible make out where the lifts would have been. You can see at least one sealed up passage that is in the wrong place and is too small to be a lift shaft entrance. Where does it go?

On the Edgware platform a ventilation grille is visible in what is now a disused passage. This all points to an additional track and/or platform between and underneath the existing platforms. One theory is that it may have been a disused terminal platform. That would explain the bi-directional single track.

[rincew1nd]

Apr 25, 2011 12:46:28 GMT @navaleye said:

Interesting points. I have done some more detective work. If you take a train from Mornington Crescent northbound you see a tunnel with a red signal off to the right.

This isn't the crossover is it?


Tube Lines - Camden by rincewindthefailedwizard, on Flickr

[North End]

Apr 25, 2011 12:46:28 GMT @navaleye said:

Interesting points. I have done some more detective work. If you take a train from Mornington Crescent northbound you see a tunnel with a red signal off to the right. I originally thought that this must be part of the "new" junction, but it can't be its too far south. So where does it go?

Its safe to assume that the platforms at Camden Town are in the original tunnels. The passageway to the bottom of the escalator shaft is a 1920s addition.

I have looked at the original lower lift landing its possible make out where the lifts would have been. You can see at least one sealed up passage that is in the wrong place and is too small to be a lift shaft entrance. Where does it go?

On the Edgware platform a ventilation grille is visible in what is now a disused passage. This all points to an additional track and/or platform between and underneath the existing platforms. One theory is that it may have been a disused terminal platform. That would explain the bi-directional single track.

There is no disused platform at Camden Town. All of the disused passages at the south end of the station relate to the former lift landings & shafts. Remember that the current interchange passageway is just one half of the lift access passageway system - like all LER stations there were separate passageways for entry & exit.

The other half of this passage system houses various equipment rooms and is also used for ventilation purposes in conjunction with a disused lift-shaft. All of the doors & grilles on the platforms lead into this second passage system, and there's also a blocked up passage at the bottom of the spiral stairs.

I believe that there was access to the Deep Shelter from Camden Town station, however my understanding is that this emerged in the later 1920s passageways.

The rumour about the additional platforms is one that you frequently hear from station staff at Camden Town. However if you ask further questions, like "how do you access these platforms?", the answer you get then gives you a perfect description of the deep shelter!

So I submit that the rumour of additional platforms is something that has stemmed from confusion with the deep shelter.

There is nothing shown on the station layout plans or on the Northern Line property plans, and I've never seen any evidence of anything apart from the deep shelter.

[navaleye]

Thanks for that the thought occurred that there are entrance and exit passageways but compared other LER stations it sounds rather complicated.

My own interest in this topic started quite a few years ago on a plane. I was sitting next to a guy who was carrying an old style 1st generation brick phone. I asked why he had it as it could not possibly work. He said that it didn't, but it came in useful for other things, especially in Northern Ireland. We went on to discuss other subjects and I mentioned that I had been down to Bull and Bush. He knew about that and asked if I had seen something down there that I shouldn't have. He didn't elaborate as to what it was. He then asked if I knew about about Camden Town. He told me that there was an additional by directional track and then pulled a document out of his brief case which listed it and described how to access it as I have mentioned above. He didn't know where it went, but I have no doubt he knew it was there.

[JR 15secs]

Apr 24, 2011 21:01:29 GMT Geoffram said:

There is a fifth tunnel, a Deep-level shelter built more than thirty years after the line first opened. This is described in detail here www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/sites/c/camden_town/index.html.
This article mentions that the tunnel was 'connected to the Northern Line platforms at Camden Town' but not exactly where.

There is actually a sixth tunnel the deep shelter comprises two tunnels and the connection was after turning left at the bottom of the escalators along the passageway.

[North End]

Apr 28, 2011 9:38:15 GMT JR 15secs said:

Apr 24, 2011 21:01:29 GMT Geoffram said:

There is a fifth tunnel, a Deep-level shelter built more than thirty years after the line first opened. This is described in detail here www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/sites/c/camden_town/index.html.
This article mentions that the tunnel was 'connected to the Northern Line platforms at Camden Town' but not exactly where.

There is actually a sixth tunnel the deep shelter comprises two tunnels and the connection was after turning left at the bottom of the escalators along the passageway.

Yes I thought so - there's a blocked up opening in the passage leading to Platform 1. Thanks for confirming that.

[navaleye]

Yes I've seen that one too. It has an advert in it now, thanks. The question still remains, what is that can be accessed via the staff room (and I think he said loos) on Platform 1? I've not been in there.