Platform doors

[edwardfox]

Just curious about what regular users of the stretch of the line with platform doors at stations feel about them.
Were they worth the extra expense?
Do they create extra difficulties in situations where an already packed train arrives with crowds of intending passengers waiting?
Assuming they existence is considered a success, would it be possible (and are their any plans to) install them at existing stations?
Do they create an eerie atmosphere at the stations which have them?

[Deleted]

To retrofit them at existing stations would be exorbitantly costly, and I don't think there are any plans to retrofit them in the near future. Any new build lines I guess will have them as standard.

I've not seen them cause any problems when busy trains arrive; most sensible passengers wait, rather than try and barge on.

I think they were worth it and certainly, it does seem to quicken up the service on the stretch of line so fitted; they've reduced passenger/door interventions certainly! As to station atmosphere, they've reduced the amount of dust and stuff that gets blown into the face!

[Deleted]

Never had a one under at a station with PEDs, platform overcrowding much less of a hazard, a lot less litter on the tracks, a lot less dust on the platforms.

Big problems retro fitting them onto platforms with big curves, very expensive and would mean shutting stations while they were installed so lots of disruption.

[Deleted]

In Hong Kong, platform edge doors were retrofitted to many platforms over a period of years - obviously they have less platforms to do, but the business case clearly stacked up, once the inital trials were evaluated to be a success.

[abe]

In Paris, Line 1 of the Metro is nearing the end of a programme to retro-fit PEDs to all platforms in readiness for the introduction of driverless trains. The PEDs are not as tall as those on the JLE, and have all their equipment under the platform (instead of having stuff above the door level). Having tested the process at a disused platform a couple of years ago, they have had a rolling programme of strengthening the platforms and installing the doors. The doors are installed as modules, with 18 modules per platforms and two modules installed per night. Stations are not closed for the installation work. Once each platform is completed and tested, the doors are made operational (even though the trains still have drivers); this gets the passengers used to them. Once the line is fully equipped, the rolling stock will be replaced by the driverless trains. Of course, this does mean that the old and new rolling stock has to have their doors in identical positions. More information here; it's in French, but there are a number of pictures and videos of the work.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't like to use Canary Wharf without them now! They're very good for orderly boarding, as it encourages queuing, which also encourages standing aside to let people off; that doesn't always work, but I've not seen the same scrum conditions as some older central London stations.

[Dstock7080]

I recently returned from Hong Kong where further work to retro-fit platform doors is continuing.
Stations at Heng Fa Chuen, Chai Wan, Kowloon Bay, Ngau Tau Kok, Kwun Tong, Kwai Fong, Kwai Hing and Tsuen Wan are getting half-height doors.

tinyurl.com/3tpovt9
tinyurl.com/3s3pts2 refers.

[ianvisits]

Although I still see people trying to leap through the doors as they close, I see it far less on the Jubilee Extension than elsewhere on the network.

I suspect that the sight of double doors closing (platform and train) is a deterrent to most people who would unconsciously worry about being trapped between two sets of doors as a train is leaving.

Would be interesting to know if there are statistics to show the impact on station dwell times with and without the platform doors due to lack of "stuck passengers".

[Deleted]

Although I am not a regular traveller on the Jubilee Line between Westminster and North Greenwich (the section in question), I don't mind the doors at all. In-fact they're pretty cool what with the sound they make when they open and close.

May 24, 2011 17:13:18 GMT @edwardfox said:

Were they worth the extra expense?

Do correct me if I'm wrong here, but I do believe the PEDs (Platform Edge Doors) were put in to save money. I don't know the full story about/behind this not-so-known fact but I understand it's true.

May 25, 2011 13:08:10 GMT ianvisits said:

Would be interesting to know if there are statistics to show the impact on station dwell times with and without the platform doors due to lack of "stuck passengers".

Sounds like you need to get on a certain website.... and submit a Freedom of Information request to Transport for London ("TfL")

[Deleted]

May 24, 2011 17:13:18 GMT @edwardfox said:

Were they worth the extra expense?

May 26, 2011 2:11:27 GMT @uktrainman said:

Do correct me if I'm wrong here, but I do believe the PEDs (Platform Edge Doors) were put in to save money. I don't know the full story about/behind this not-so-known fact but I understand it's true.

How exactly would it have been more expensive NOT to install PEDs? Unless you can offer a more detailed explanation that suggestion is as much use as a chocolate teapot.

May 25, 2011 13:08:10 GMT ianvisits said:

Would be interesting to know if there are statistics to show the impact on station dwell times with and without the platform doors due to lack of "stuck passengers".

May 26, 2011 2:11:27 GMT @uktrainman said:

Sounds like you need to get on a certain website.... and submit a Freedom of Information request to Transport for London ("TfL")

I doubt if LUL keep such detailed records, it would need someone to sit through hours of CCTV footage for each platform when normally then only pull them out when there’s been an incident.

One thought did occur to me while trolling up and down the Central Line yesterday; does the physical presence of a door on the platform subconsciously discourage passengers from standing directly in front of them whereas on conventional platforms there is no physical indication of where the train doors will open?

Perhaps there should be a detailed study of passenger behaviour at platforms with PEDs, give David Attenborough a call…..

[Deleted]

Don’t suppose anyone knows how much it cost to convert Line 1 to driverless and install PEDs?

Ah Paris, where they understand the benefits of investing in the public transport system……

Actually, ah (insert name of town that isn't London), where they understand the benefits of investing in the public transport system………

We get the Boris bike, a bus so big you’d have trouble parking it in the Grand Canyon and a cable car from which you will be able to enjoy panoramic views of Canning Town.

[1018509]

When I first started using Waterloo Jubilee it took a while to realise that you were actually on the platform if you arrived before a train did. The platform doors hide all track except that immediately in front of you.

[Deleted]

The Hong Kong PEDs are there to make the station climate control much cheaper and more effective. Air conditioning on stations that's trying to cool the tunnels that are filled with hot air expelled from the trains isn't terribly effective. The PEDs allow the stations to be cooler - the heat from the gap between the PEDs and the train is very noticeable.

They do also allow the passengers to line up in a more orderly way! It feels slightly weird to be on a platform without PEDs in HK but even the open air platforms have blue strip lights that line up with the doors to show where to queue!

[Chris M]

May 26, 2011 5:58:52 GMT aslefshrugged said:

How exactly would it have been more expensive NOT to install PEDs? Unless you can offer a more detailed explanation that suggestion is as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Installing PEDs is obviously more expensive in the short term than not installing PEDs. However if you take into account the costs of cooling, cleaning(?), disruption due to passengers under trains, etc then in the longer term it might be cheaper. I have no idea if this is the case or not.

[plasmid]

I remember reading somewhere that the PED on the Jubilee Line paid for themselves after a year. Though I can't remember where...

[Deleted]

I can't see that they actually make that much of a difference. If you ask me (which nobody ever does), they were only installed so TfL could look like they were doing something to stop one-unders and accidental train deaths. It's like in schools now where they paint all of the steps yellow. They wouldn't normally bother doing it, they're just trying to make it look like they are doing something to combat step related injuries.

[Chris M]

While a lot of actions are as much for show as anything the two examples you've quoted do have proven benefits. The PEDs do stop one-unders and do have benefits in terms of airflow, etc. Step edges with a contrasting colour are very beneficial for people with limited eyesight as it makes it much easier for them to see where the edge of the step is - if you've ever misjudged a step then you'll know how painful it can be, indeed if you're unlucky falling down stairs can be fatal.

[Deleted]

May 26, 2011 20:26:11 GMT @martello736 said:

I can't see that they actually make that much of a difference. If you ask me (which nobody ever does), they were only installed so TfL could look like they were doing something to stop one-unders and accidental train deaths.

Actually they have reduced accidental train deaths. Ever been on a packed JLE platform at Waterloo where there are delays in the morning rush?

While I understand that retrofitting can be expensive, especially on curved platforms such as the Central at Bank, I would have been very interested to see a Cost-benefit analysis of retro fitting on the straight Vic platforms for example. I know the Vic has relatively narrow platforms and so this may have been slightly inhibitive, but I would imagine that PED's are about the same thikness of the platform edge (behind the yellow line) and so would only take up the space in which passengers should not otherwise be walking.

Edit: Having said that, how do you quantify the value of a person's life? I meant in terms of operational benefit in addition to the lives saved.

[Deleted]

May 27, 2011 6:55:58 GMT @cityboy said:

May 26, 2011 20:26:11 GMT @martello736 said:

I can't see that they actually make that much of a difference. If you ask me (which nobody ever does), they were only installed so TfL could look like they were doing something to stop one-unders and accidental train deaths.

Actually they have reduced accidental train deaths. Ever been on a packed JLE platform at Waterloo where there are delays in the morning rush?

While I understand that retrofitting can be expensive, especially on curved platforms such as the Central at Bank, I would have been very interested to see a Cost-benefit analysis of retro fitting on the straight Vic platforms for example. I know the Vic has relatively narrow platforms and so this may have been slightly inhibitive, but I would imagine that PED's are about the same thikness of the platform edge (behind the yellow line) and so would only take up the space in which passengers should not otherwise be walking.

Edit: Having said that, how do you quantify the value of a person's life? I meant in terms of operational benefit in addition to the lives saved.

The problem with curved platforms isn’t expense it’s the gap between train and platform, it would be quite easy for a passenger to fall between the train and the PEDs. I think someone mentioned on here there was a fatality on a curved platform with PEDs in Singapore.

I’m sure somewhere in a filing cabinet at 55 there is a study that could tell you how much it would cost to install PEDs on every station, along with one that put a price on straightening the Central Line platforms at Bank and Notting Hill Gate and the estimate to convert the Tube to driverless operation.

All three were read once, quickly put away and the reader went across the road to the Old Star for a very stiff brandy.

[Deleted]

May 28, 2011 7:11:13 GMT aslefshrugged said:

The problem with curved platforms isn’t expense it’s the gap between train and platform, it would be quite easy for a passenger to fall between the train and the PEDs. I think someone mentioned on here there was a fatality on a curved platform with PEDs in Singapore.

I’m sure somewhere in a filing cabinet at 55 there is a study that could tell you how much it would cost to install PEDs on every station, along with one that put a price on straightening the Central Line platforms at Bank and Notting Hill Gate and the estimate to convert the Tube to driverless operation.

All three were read once, quickly put away and the reader went across the road to the Old Star for a very stiff brandy.

LOL, am quite sure of that.

I just thought for a line with straight platforms like the Vic it would be highly beneficial in terms of operational costs and lives saved.

[Deleted]

May 26, 2011 20:26:11 GMT @martello736 said:

I can't see that they actually make that much of a difference. If you ask me (which nobody ever does), they were only installed so TfL could look like they were doing something to stop one-unders and accidental train deaths. It's like in schools now where they paint all of the steps yellow. They wouldn't normally bother doing it, they're just trying to make it look like they are doing something to combat step related injuries.

Your'e forgetting something else though, the main reason they installed them was for ventilation management purposes.
Basically, they prevent hot air, as well is other rubbish such as tunnel dust from being blown down the tunnels and onto the platform, in turn this also makes tunnel fires very unlikely to happen indeed.
Also if one unders were such a big part of it, they would have fitted them at West Ham, Canning Town etc...

[Deleted]

May 28, 2011 8:11:19 GMT @cityboy said:

May 28, 2011 7:11:13 GMT aslefshrugged said:

The problem with curved platforms isn’t expense it’s the gap between train and platform, it would be quite easy for a passenger to fall between the train and the PEDs. I think someone mentioned on here there was a fatality on a curved platform with PEDs in Singapore.

I’m sure somewhere in a filing cabinet at 55 there is a study that could tell you how much it would cost to install PEDs on every station, along with one that put a price on straightening the Central Line platforms at Bank and Notting Hill Gate and the estimate to convert the Tube to driverless operation.

All three were read once, quickly put away and the reader went across the road to the Old Star for a very stiff brandy.

LOL, am quite sure of that.

I just thought for a line with straight platforms like the Vic it would be highly beneficial in terms of operational costs and lives saved.

The savings wouldn't appear until after installation and there's never been that kind of money available, PEDs weren't even included under PPP.

We certainly aren't going to get the money to do anything with the current mayor and the DfT cutting TfL's budget.

The step free access project was cancelled even before the last election and with Tubelines gone we won't see new trains on the Picc till the 20s.

[railtechnician]

May 28, 2011 8:11:19 GMT @cityboy said:

May 28, 2011 7:11:13 GMT aslefshrugged said:

The problem with curved platforms isn’t expense it’s the gap between train and platform, it would be quite easy for a passenger to fall between the train and the PEDs. I think someone mentioned on here there was a fatality on a curved platform with PEDs in Singapore.

I’m sure somewhere in a filing cabinet at 55 there is a study that could tell you how much it would cost to install PEDs on every station, along with one that put a price on straightening the Central Line platforms at Bank and Notting Hill Gate and the estimate to convert the Tube to driverless operation.

All three were read once, quickly put away and the reader went across the road to the Old Star for a very stiff brandy.

LOL, am quite sure of that.

I just thought for a line with straight platforms like the Vic it would be highly beneficial in terms of operational costs and lives saved.

Well it all depends upon your definition of straight! Don't forget that Finsbury Park Vic is not a straight platform with its well known hump. In order to have effective and safe PEDs at all tube stations I expect that a great deal of civil engineering would be necessary in the way of enabling works to achieve straight and level platforms. of course at some stations such as Waterloo and Embankment some major works would be required. I expect that it will happen in the future but long after those of us around today have shuffled off our mortal coils.

[Chris M]

I'd have thought that straight but not level platforms would just require the doors to be of a staggered height, just like fences on a hill.

[railtechnician]

May 28, 2011 13:13:47 GMT Chris M said:

I'd have thought that straight but not level platforms would just require the doors to be of a staggered height, just like fences on a hill.

True enough but I would think the angle of the curve is important in terms of working clearances for moving doors and staggering the heights of the doors as suggested could involve 'steps' in inappropriate places or require special units. If bespoke was the objective then I'd expect a retrofit everywhere but standard is by far the best approach even if it would mean some major civil engineering.
On that score don't forget that platforms have been lowered, tunnels widened and other areas knocked about to allow new stock, UTS ticket offices, for H&S compliance etc etc.

Thinking out of the box I'd be looking to standardise the entire network in the future, station layout, rolling stock, signalling etc etc instead of the seemingly relentless diversification into all things new on a piecemeal basis. Standardisation reduces installation and maintenance costs and allows universal upgrading far more cheaply too.

[norbitonflyer]

Or be parallelogram-shaped, so the sides are still vertical, but the top and bottom are parallel to the platform, and the doors move slantwise. The motors' power would need to be tweaked to compensate for the gradient.

[Deleted]

I have probably been using these for longer than many of you here, because they have been built into the St Petersburg Metro in Russia for as long as I can remember. They are called the Horizontal Lift type of station, because you wait in the passage between the lines, and on each side there are what look like 24 lift doors (there are four doors to a carriage and six carriages), which open when the train comes just like the Jubilee Line. One difference is there are no windows, so you don't see the train arrive until the doors are opened, but you certainly hear it arriving behind the doors. Visitors sometimes can't understand it is actually the train platform there. They really do look like a long line of lift doors. Here
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moskovskaya_Peterburg_metrostation.jpg

[norbitonflyer]

May 28, 2011 22:45:55 GMT @diana said:

the St Petersburg Metro are called the Horizontal Lift type of station, because you wait in the passage between the lines, and on each side there are what look like 24 lift doors which open when the train comes just like the Jubilee Line. One difference is there are no windows, so you don't see the train arrive until the doors open

That sounds like the "Transits" between the terminals at Gatwick Airport, although there are only six doors

[retep]

May 28, 2011 22:45:55 GMT @diana said:

I have probably been using these for longer than many of you here, because they have been built into the St Petersburg Metro in Russia for as long as I can remember. They are called the Horizontal Lift type of station, because you wait in the passage between the lines, and on each side there are what look like 24 lift doors (there are four doors to a carriage and six carriages), which open when the train comes just like the Jubilee Line. One difference is there are no windows, so you don't see the train arrive until the doors are opened, but you certainly hear it arriving behind the doors. Visitors sometimes can't understand it is actually the train platform there. They really do look like a long line of lift doors. Here
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moskovskaya_Peterburg_metrostation.jpg

Nice, to hear but i don't like these type of doors cause you don't get to see the trains exterior.

Btw, with PED's wouldn't it be more expensive when introducing new stock that has different carriage lengths and doors in different areas to the existing stock?

If they installed PED's in all tube stations now the space train's design might have to compromise and what about the S stock's doors.

[Chris M]

Yes, PEDs do require all stock serving the platform to have the same door arrangements^[1]. This includes successor stock unless you replace your PEDS at the same time (expensive) and work out how to deal with the transition period (tricky).

[1]Although in theory I suppose you could design PEDs that worked with two stocks only opening the subset of platform doors that matched the train in the platform. This would be very complicated (and thus expensive) to design and so how practical it would be in the real word I don't know. You'd probably also want to have some way of informing passengers which doors will open for the next train, which depending on how tied to routes stock are and how you describe different lines/routes/stocks mightn't be easy for the unfamiliar traveller.