Old signals on the jubilee line

[jardine01]

Hello everybody. I am just wondering what is happening to the old signals now bagged up on the jubilee line? I would of thought they have been taken down by now? I have not been on the jubilee line lately I hope to soon though. Are the old signals there for backup incase the TBTC fails? I honestly don't know


Thanks

[Deleted]

It'd be a lot of work recommissioning the old signals AIUI.

Probably just there's other things to be done before they come down!

[DWS]

May 26, 2011 21:01:23 GMT @cj said:

It'd be a lot of work recommissioning the old signals AIUI.

Probably just there's other things to be done before they come down!

The old signals will never be used as the power has been cut off to them.

When the whole line has gone over to TBTC it will be a new work programme to remove them.

Remember the TBTC was due to be finished by 31 December 2009

[Deleted]

I think the trainstops have been either 'pegged down' (as a start) and some have already been removed.

[North End]

May 26, 2011 21:12:28 GMT @reganorak said:

I think the trainstops have been either 'pegged down' (as a start) and some have already been removed.

I'm not aware of any trainstops having been removed. In fact, a handful of trainstops remain operational, though most are simply pegged down.

I'm not entirely sure of the reason for this, but go to London Bridge or Waterloo and you can clearly hear the sound of trainstops raising and lowering. My *guess* is that this is some kind of additional safeguard during the inter-running period for reversing points, e.g. if a train arrives at London Bridge WB platform having crossed over from the EB, when the Train Operator changes ends the now-front end of the train could still be set to Tripcock mode (from the previous northbound trip). There would then be nothing to prevent the train setting off at full speed with no protection at all. I think these trainstops must be integrated into the TBTC system rather than the previous LT signalling.

The bagged-up old signals are not doing any harm remaining in place, so I guess removing them is not a priority. Plus the line could probably do without the disruption of not just removing the signals, but all the associated location cases, relays, cables, trainstops, signage, wires etc. I think the old signals could be in place for some time, but they will certainly never be used again.

[Deleted]

I am sure some have already been removed. However, next time I am around, I will recheck and re-post what I find.

[Deleted]

The southbound tripcock tester at Finchley Road was still in use a month back, but yesterday I didn't see it lit up at all so I imagine its been turned off now.
Pretty much all the trainstops Ive seen are still there but not operational.

I wonder what will happen to the signal ID plates, ebay?

[railtechnician]

May 26, 2011 20:51:45 GMT @jardine01 said:

Hello everybody. I am just wondering what is happening to the old signals now bagged up on the jubilee line? I would of thought they have been taken down by now? I have not been on the jubilee line lately I hope to soon though. Are the old signals there for backup incase the TBTC fails? I honestly don't know


Thanks

Recovery of redundant equipment and cabling is not a priority unless it is occupying space required by something new, in which case some kind of enabling work would have been done where necessary in order to get the new eqipment and cabling into place.
The modern way seems to be to install new cable runs instead of clearing the old runs as we used to years ago by dropping extant, but becoming redundant, cabling into balata straps slung beneath.

Equipment wise anything 'coming out' will usually be clearly marked as will anything 'staying in' using the usual painted on coded identifications. Sometime following the commissioning of the new equipment the old equipment gets removed. Back in the heyday of signalling installation the New Works division would generally test and commission the new equipment and remove the redundant equipment in the same shift as sites were resignalled, this was the pattern for both single and multiple site resignalling and often involved relaying of track, rerailing, communications upgrades and other works all in the same shift. I worked on many such 'changeovers' in the late 1970s and on into the 1980s.

In the case of the Jubilee line I expect the old equipment will be in demand as (a) spares to keep other lines signalling maintained until upgrade (b) to be donated to preserved railways who are always looking for spares, especially signal heads, relays and equipment cases, SPTs etc (c) the TfL/LT Museum although I have heard that it has more exhibits than it can ever use so it would probably only want rare items (d) possibly other museums (e) scrap.

The cable will definitely go for scrap and should go some way towards offsetting the cost of the resignalling by a small amount as should any scrapped equipment which can be recycled to make something else. Of course that rather depends upon cable thieves being kept away from the system until the redundant cable can be recovered legitimately.

[Deleted]

The LTM have actually got a backup signalling computer desk from the old signalling from Neasden SCC at Acton, I had a word with a volunteer about it and he said they want to get it working and theyv'e got all the keyboards and bits for it.
It's basically that blue thing with screens sitting where all the signalling stuff is. He told me it was actually quite upto date and had flatscreen monitors instead of those big CRT screens, quite high tec for the 90's.

[Deleted]

I'd love a signalhead in my room!

[causton]

Might make it a bit hard to have friends round, "Sorry, only one person is allowed in this block section"!

[railtechnician]

May 28, 2011 0:28:47 GMT causton said:

Might make it a bit hard to have friends round, "Sorry, only one person is allowed in this block section"!

How about a subsidiary signal instead and 'call on' the friends one at a time!

[Deleted]

Just a general enquiry not using the underground at all a question comes to mind, why is it that in the week there were severe delays on the Jubilee for a signal failure at Bond Street even though I take it the signals are bagged up, or not used as normal signals are, ie with train stop ? Thanks

[Chris M]

This was answered somewhere recently but I can't find the thread. Basically, "signal failure" means "failure of some part of the signalling system", not necessarily a physical signal. Indeed I think I remember reading that it's more likely for the train stop to be at fault than a signal head. "Signal failure" is a simplified explanation that (a) the general public can understand and (b) is generic enough not to need know exactly what has failed - which isn't always going to be known at the start of a failure.

[21146]

That failure was with an axle-counter which is regarded as a signalling asset.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the info Chris M and 21146.

[Tom]

May 28, 2011 15:08:41 GMT railtechnician said:

May 28, 2011 0:28:47 GMT causton said:

Might make it a bit hard to have friends round, "Sorry, only one person is allowed in this block section"!

How about a subsidiary signal instead and 'call on' the friends one at a time!

I did have a shunt signal in my garden for a few weeks. It was multi-SPAD both in its old location and in the garden!

It appears now that a number of trainstops have been removed now, but I don't know about any of the signal heads or the wiring in the equipment rooms.

[Deleted]

I can now confirm that the trainstops were removed about 2-3 months ago with the exception of the northbound starters at West Hampstead and Willesden Green, and the exit from the sidings at the same locations. Also, all the shunt signals south of Dollis Hill were also removed 2 months ago. All of the 'old' signals are now switched off with no power to the red/green aspects.

[Deleted]

Plus there are TBTC operated ones at Stratford, North Greenwich, London Bridge and Waterloo, Baker Street still present and in use. I don't know why they are still needed, but it is something to do with whilst the trains can still have tripcocks enabled on them, so I assume these will go when the north end is in and running.

[Deleted]

What arrangements, if any, will go in at Baker Street to test the ATO of any train entering the Jubilee on the northbound or the tripcock of any train exiting the Jubilee on the southbound?

[Deleted]

My mistake, SB tripcock tester at Finchley Road is still operational.

[Deleted]

The ones at Canning Town are still working too

[jardine01]

The old signals are still bagged up on the Jubilee line at West Hamstead are they just going to just stay bagged up for ever or will they ever be chopped down? I can't belive come January 2012 TBTC/ATO on the Jubilee line has been on for one year!

[Deleted]

It was announced (internally) that from 15.08.11 the old signalling equipment would start to be removed. But not a lot seems to have happened so far, unless I have missed something, or it is all happening behind the scenes?

[Deleted]

Just a little to add:

The surface stock train detector seems to have been de-commissioned at Finchley Road - there is no trainstop in advance of it any more.

There are fixed trainstops (more than one, but haven't counted how many) on the southbound Jubilee Line south of Neasden, so even if a Met was routed onto the SB Jubilee, it wouldn't/shouldn't get very far - and nowhere near Finchley Road.

Whilst most (all?) of the old signals remain (bagged), many (most/all?) of their associated trainstops have been removed, although again I haven't checked which have and which haven't.

[Deleted]

Train stops are always in demand for refurb / repairs / reuse on the rest of the network, as I suppose are certain relic shunt signals etc for spares. I guess the newer stuff like the LED signals on the extension are not really needed anywhere for reuse so are a low priority to remove.