Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,309
|
Post by Colin on Mar 5, 2005 2:19:07 GMT
I was chatting to a former station colleauge at Earls Court today and the subject of the recent pay and conditions agreement for station staff came up. Some of you may recall that LUL agreed as part of the deal, that there would be no reduction in station staff numbers. Apparently that's all out of the window now as plans are afoot to reduce the number of Station Assistants rostered at Earls Court from 22 to 16. Also on the Earls Court group are stations to Wimbledon park. Of these Fulham Broadway is to have it's Station Assistant's cut from 8 to 5, with all the other stations losing their Station Assistants completely! I feel as a train operator on the District line, this is a worrying trend. If a passenger alarm is operated on a train, there would be less staff to assist in dealing with the situation. And what about the Oyster card? All barriers have to be working - but will they with no staff manning them? Then there's the Football days when Chelsea fans use Fulham Broadway. The last time I worked there, at least 10 staff were required on overtime - where will they come from? I hope it's only a vicious rumour, but, I fear it will soon be reality.
|
|
|
Post by Admin Team on Mar 5, 2005 10:21:36 GMT
Thanks for raising this Colin - I too find it concerning, for exactly the reasons you've stated.
Perhaps there's some readers here from the 'station side' of the business who can enlighten us and, hopefully, put our minds at rest, but I still know a few station staff too but from different station groups, so I'll be trying to find out more.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2005 18:35:04 GMT
From a punter's perspective, this doesn't sound too good - one thing that LU SSL management has gotten right is the presence of staff at Earls Court, especially during disruptions. There's always at least two or three SAs on the islands, an SA on the gateline and at least one ticket window open on both sides, with two being the norm. If staffing levels go down, it would be a very bad thing IMO.
|
|
|
Post by lindsay on Mar 5, 2005 20:00:07 GMT
I thought the barriers could not be used if they were not manned, if they are going to remove staff from some stations they may have to leave the barriers open and hope people pay, of course they would have to pay if they were going to a manned station.
|
|
|
Post by Admin Team on Mar 5, 2005 20:34:48 GMT
I thought that's the situation too.
Any station staff able to confirm?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2005 1:19:11 GMT
Unfortunatly leaving stations unmanned is not unusual, often stations on the East end of the District, East end of the Central and North end of the Met have been left unmanned for quite a few years now. I think it will take a major incident leading to loss of life to change things, until then LU are quite happy to leave non Section 12 Stations unmanned.
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,309
|
Post by Colin on Mar 6, 2005 2:28:08 GMT
The ruling on barriers being in operation is: "providing the entire gateline can be monitored from the ticket office, all gates must be powered up and in operation" This is deemed safe because there is an emergency release switch and a manual gate switch in every ticket office. I can think of a few stations where this is not possible, but, at the end of the day it's a get out clause. If you have been to the new Fulham Broadway ticket hall, you will see that there is a large window in the side of the ticket office. It serves no purpose other than to comply with the above statement.
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,309
|
Post by Colin on Mar 8, 2005 19:54:40 GMT
I've done some digging and it appears the planned date for all this to happen is November 2005. Also the gates will be manned - by Station supervisor's! That's right the ticket sellers will be in a nice warm ticket ticket office, while the the station supervisor (the day to day boss of the station) will be out on the gateline. Really?! Also LU is having problems with the planned customer freindly roster's (which put staff where customer's need them(?!)), which means all station staff transfer's have been suspended. I aslo hear that train operator recruitment is on a massive slowdown. This is partly due to lack of money and LU overestimating how many staff were needed to fill vacancies. I know of staff who have passed all the test's, interviews, medicals, etc and are just waiting for a training date. They are being told to wait until 2006 ! That's what staff waiting for training dates have been told anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put the underground down. You have to wonder though, does anyone at headoffice have their 'finger on the pulse'?
|
|
|
Post by Admin Team on Mar 8, 2005 20:10:55 GMT
Hmm - interesting about the station's staffing matter. It'll be interesting to watch developments.....
But it seems a bit perverse to me, paying SAMF's +/- £23k to flog tickets and SS's +/- £35 to watch the barriers. I know which I'd rather do!
Recruitment does seem a bit confused at the moment. I've heard of many waiting for T/Ops training whilst I know the District is actually overcomplement at the moment for T/Ops. I know that other lines do have a higher turnover than we, but it does seem odd. Add to that I heard recently that there will be further internal advertising for T/Ops in the not too distant future.
|
|
|
Post by James on Mar 9, 2005 20:26:13 GMT
I don't know if this really should be cause for alarm. LU has always at least seemed to have more station staff than other comparably large systems (eg the NYC Subway, the Paris Métro). Of course, London's fare system complicates matters by requiring a ticket to get out of the system...
|
|
|
Post by chris on Mar 21, 2005 16:30:29 GMT
£35K for watching barriers? Why?
|
|
|
Post by Admin Team on Mar 21, 2005 20:30:08 GMT
£35K for watching barriers? Why? From the discussion, the suggestion is that they'll be getting Station Supervisors to do barrier duties, and SS's (at the 'big' stations) earn (sorry -'are paid') about £35k!
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,309
|
Post by Colin on Mar 23, 2005 11:17:23 GMT
You are are quite correct Dave.
Chris, think of it as when trains were crewed by both drivers and gaurds. As a way of reducing the wage bill someone had to go. Basically the train can't move without a driver, but it can without a gaurd, so it was the poor gaurds who got the chop. On stations the Station Supervisor is in charge (with legal responsibillities), while the Station Assistant is the person on the barrier (whose only responsibillity is to protect revenue). Basically the SA's are easier to get rid of !!
Incidently, i've also found out that West Brompton is to loose it's 2 SA's and have them replaced with 3 Ticket Office Staff !?! This is because at the moment the ticket office is only manned by the SS. As i've said before, I don't wish to put the Underground down - but who comes up with these ridiculous ideas ?
|
|
|
Post by Admin Team on Mar 23, 2005 11:25:03 GMT
Incidently, i've also found out that West Brompton is to loose it's 2 SA's and have them replaced with 3 Ticket Office Staff !?! This is because at the moment the ticket office is only manned by the SS. As i've said before, I don't wish to put the Underground down - but who comes up with these ridiculous ideas ? So, let me get this right? They're getting rid of 2 SA's who're paid about £20k and replacing them with 3 Ticket Office staff at about £23k and reducing the productivity of the Station Supervisor. (Takes off shoes and socks to count toes as well as fingers......) Doesn't *quite* seem to add up to me...............
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,309
|
Post by Colin on Mar 23, 2005 20:52:20 GMT
I kid you not, you couldn't make it up. It's no wonder that LUL gets bad press sometimes when they do this sort of thing. I can see now why LUL has been underfunded if this is how they do their budgeting !!
I started this thread because I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Now I can't wait to hear the next farcical idea !
|
|
|
Post by angsup on Mar 24, 2005 14:09:23 GMT
First things first, District Dave I think your site is fantastic! Came across your site back in October last year (Tube Prune) and became hooked! I've always wanted to live in London (currently living in Edinburgh) and the chance to do it is becoming possible. The chance to work on the underground would be a dream come true! (start at bottom of ladder and hopefully work up to become a T/Op!)
As far as I can tell by reading this thread it looks like your "downsizing". Getting rid of SA's and providing more ticket office staff doesn't seem quite right. It will be interesting to watch developments! Do you think LU will be recruiting again later in the year? (summer/autumn)
Pete!
|
|
|
Post by chris on Mar 24, 2005 19:20:05 GMT
I kid you not, you couldn't make it up. It's no wonder that LUL gets bad press sometimes when they do this sort of thing. I can see now why LUL has been underfunded if this is how they do their budgeting !! I started this thread because I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Now I can't wait to hear the next farcical idea ! How about driverless trains? It'll cost alot to install, but it'll be an opportunity cost. They'll make their money back eventually.
|
|
|
Post by igelkotten on Mar 24, 2005 22:57:37 GMT
How about driverless trains? It'll cost alot to install, but it'll be an opportunity cost. They'll make their money back eventually. I'm not so sure about that, at least not without heavy qualifications. While a system designed for driverless operation from start can certainly be successful, introducing driverless trains on a crew-served railway opens a huge spectrum of problems. There are, of course, the obvious technical problems with getting trains to stop in the right place etc. Then, you come to the safety and service aspects. How do you effectively respond to an emergency aboard a train when the nearest memeber of staff is several kilometres away? Organise an evacuation? And if it is a real crisis situation, such as a heavy fire or smoke condition aboard the train? If you solve these problems by having a staff member on board, as a "train captain", "host" "service manager" or whatever, how much do you really save compared to having a full driver aboard? Especially if these staff members are to have safety critical duties, such as emergency functions, necessiating them to have special training, selection procedures and so on. What is perhaps not as immideately obvious, but equally important, is the huge change in the safety and operations procedures and culture that is necessary. How, for example, are you going to protect workers on track? What procedural changes have to be implemented? Is is possible that the maintenance regimes might have to be substantially changed? What impact does that have on availability and crew requirement levels? Do you have to rewrite your rule book, re-train and re-qulify all your staff? Might you end up in a situation where you have to implement a lot of special rules for your driverless line, and another set of rules for the rest of the network? What are the costs of that? Working as a driver, and having first-hand knowledge of how exceedingly seldom reality conforms to the rules and regulations, I must say that I remain very sceptical about the introduction of driverless trains on a previously crew-operated line. ATO operation with a driver as some kind of supervisor, perhaps, but not entirely de-staffed trains.
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,309
|
Post by Colin on Mar 25, 2005 2:31:43 GMT
As far as driverless trains go, LUL can't have it's cake and eat it ! As igelkotten says, there's a whole host of reason's why this would be nigh on impossible to introduce and you certainly couldn't do it without station staff at EVERY station.
Also Pete, at the moment, LUL recruits all year round for station staff. I got the job through someone who already worked on the railway, but I believe the main port of call is Marylebone job centre.
The staff changes mentioned are planned to take place in November as part of a grand scheme to give staff more 'family friendly rosters' and place the right staff where customers need them most. Like the rest of you, on the basis of what i've heard, I really can't see where management are heading with their plans - we'll just have to wait and see.
|
|
|
Post by chris on Mar 25, 2005 8:45:40 GMT
I suppose you're right Igelkotten. I orginally got the idea from those driverless monorails in San Fransisco, which are all in the open air, on a non complex line. Giving it some deeper though, I imagaine it would be encredibly difficult to do and can't see it happening. It would take years to get their ROCE. (Return On Capital Invested). Anyway, I don't think the underground would be the same if it were contrlloed by computers. Worlds oldest system with the newest technology?
Humans 1:0 Computers
|
|
|
Post by Admin Team on Mar 25, 2005 8:51:50 GMT
I think Igelkotten is spot on with his response. There are too many safety issues involved for it ever to be acceptable under a 'Safety Case'.
There is too the public's perception of reduced safety - I believe that LU carred out a survey some years ago about the idea, and I believe that the overwhelming balance of opinion was firmly against it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2005 21:08:00 GMT
The subject of LU running driverless trains has been extensively discussed elsewhere and it seems to be a subject bandied about especially when the RMT starts talking about strike action. Driverless trains won't happen on LU for many years or if ever, because not only the reasons already put forward, but the infrastructure of modern Metros and Monorails has been built with this in mind. Virtually all driverless systems have emergency walkways in the whole length of the tunnels with marked emergency escape exits to the surface every few hundred meters, this means in an emergency passengers have a safe way off the system. On LU there is no such way to detrain trains and the only way is via the track to the next station, without staff this would be highly dangerous. Most modern driverless systems also have PED's. On the DLR if no one is available to monitor the platforms in the control room, or the CCTV isn't working, the train captain has to sit up front and work the train from there, a similar system would have to happen on LU unless PED's were fitted at every platform, a fully automatic train will carry on and stop normally after a one under, virtually every family of a one under victim would sue LU, saying there would have been a possibility of survival had someone been present to stop the train. I can see a time in the far future when trains are ATO, but I think there will always be someone on board even if he's just like a DLR train Captain. I'll be gone long before that happens.
|
|
|
Post by chris on Mar 26, 2005 8:49:57 GMT
Are 'one unders' really that much of a problem?
|
|
|
Post by Admin Team on Mar 26, 2005 9:57:56 GMT
First things first, District Dave I think your site is fantastic! Came across your site back in October last year (Tube Prune) and became hooked! I've always wanted to live in London (currently living in Edinburgh) and the chance to do it is becoming possible. The chance to work on the underground would be a dream come true! (start at bottom of ladder and hopefully work up to become a T/Op!) As far as I can tell by reading this thread it looks like your "downsizing". Getting rid of SA's and providing more ticket office staff doesn't seem quite right. It will be interesting to watch developments! Do you think LU will be recruiting again later in the year? (summer/autumn) Pete! Pete, Apologies for not having spotted this earlier! Firstly, thanks for the words about my site. Personally, I doubt that there'll be an end to CSA recruitment, though I suppose the rate of recruitment might slow. I do note however that the TfL web site says that recruitment is on hold at the moment. My own feeling is that once the dust settles on what's going on at the present time, 'natural wastage' has taken its toll and promotions occur it'll start again. I also get the impression that they've a backlog to deal with and this too is probably playing its part. Probably the best thing to do is to keep an eye on the TfL web site. Dave
|
|
|
Post by igelkotten on Mar 26, 2005 10:24:28 GMT
Are 'one unders' really that much of a problem? That depends on how you define "problem". Speaking from my Stockholm horizon, our thirtyfiveish one unders per year are a minor concern when it comes to overall delay minutes. They are, however, a major source of problems for drivers and staff, with a lot of mental anguish being the result of one of those incidents, sometimes leading to a driver not going back to driving duties at all. They are, in fact, one of our major workplace health & safety issues. What I think that Jim means, and incidentally agree completely with, is that one unders are a very high-profile thing, something that can easily be used and exploited by people for various reasons. We have had several cases here in Stockholm of people being killed due to their own actions in the Metro, with friends and relatives afterwards putting the blame on the company. Sometimes, it has led to real "hate the drivers"-campaign, with very ugly consequences for staff. The reasons behind those actions are, of course, many. Genuine shock and sorrow can cause all sorts of strange reactions in the human psyche -denial, revenge fantasies, a desperate attempt at finding a cause, something that can explain a senseless death. Others might be the stereotypical "ambulance chaser", looking for a big wad of compensation money. Now, add a ambitious journalist working for some broadsheet or other, not being especially knowledgeable about how railways run (and who is, really, apart from us sad little bunch?) but knowing what sells and what makes nice, big headlines. What I would be really concerned about is the working environment of any people who have to go trackside as a part of their duties. Even if you go the way of having ATO with a supervising driver in the cab, like the Central and Victoria lines have done, you still run into the "human-out-of-loop" problem when something happens: "Buh? Where am I? What happens? Am I supposed to do something? F**K there's someone on the track!" When a human operator (of a train, a toaster, a bike -whatever) encounters something out of the ordinary, you first have to percieve that there is actually something happening. That's were alarms, flashing lights etc come into play. Then, you have to identify what is happening, hopefully correctly, and come up with an appropriate strategy to deal with it. It has been proven again and again and again ad nauseaum that humans that are relegated to a role of passive observers of a process -out of the process loop- are significantly worse at all stages of the reaction process. It takes them longer to actually realise that something is happening, identify what happens, come up with an appropriate response and then implement it. This is one of our fundamental limitations -this is how the human mental processes works. This is not something that can be eliminated by draconian punishments, disciplinary rulings or similar methods, even though those are the ones that are most often used. What can be done is, to a certain extent, to train people to be alert for certain things, and to perform certain responses reflexively. But that is something that brings with it a whole other slew of problems, such as how to correctly diagnose a situation, and having a very limited reportoire of responses. All situtations are not solved by pushing the big yellow button -sometimes you might actually have to push the small green one, too. The major improvments in performance comes when the human operator is in a ergonomically sound working environment, reasonably well rested, and, most importantly, an active part of the process, being able to move lever A and watch the results, getting feedback on his or her actions. The human mind also tires quickly. To remain fully alert, we have to have a changing environment to respond to -or, failing that, frequent reliefs. Air Traffic Controllers often work in stretches of about one hour, after which they have a short break to mentally "reset" themselves. Of course, this ideal situation also brings with it it's own problems. The possibility of a human fiddling with a proess and getting a response is good for attention levels, but some processes are actually best left to their own devices, without human intervention. There have actually been experiments with providing false stimuli for human operators, giving them the illusion of having control over the process, but in practice being observers only. Likewise, good working environments and frequent reliefs costs money -money that is notoriously hard to get. And when it comes to "fuzzy" subjects such as these, where innumerable factors come into play and there is no fast and easy "right" or "wrong", money becomes even more scarce. /Igelkotten
|
|
|
Post by chris on Mar 26, 2005 12:20:15 GMT
Igelkotten,
Thanks alot for that - some interesting reading.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2005 0:40:22 GMT
To save starting a new thread, I thought I'd just bump this one! I was talking to one of my old mates who is an SA at Acton Town earlier today, and he informed me that they have new rotas comning into effect within the next few weeks. No-one knows for definite what the plans are, but (from what he's heard) the ticket office is only going to be open for a few hours a day, and the barriers will be unmanned for the majority of the day. There is also a rumour that once the last train has departed, the station will be manned only by a contract security guard rather than by a fully trained station supervisor as at present.
I really dread to think where these staff cuts will end on the stations. Only opening the ticket office for a few hours a day is going to cause chaos! Acton Town is pretty busy every time I see it. Apparently, LUL want to encourage people to use the machines. However if the ticket barriers are going to be unmanned (therefore left open), surely this is asking for huge revenue evasion?!
This is not to mention the fact that if a train operator needs assistance and the station only has one member of staff present, and he's dealing with something or someone else, this will cause major problems.
Surprisingly, I haven't heard a huge amount from the RMT on this subject (I know I'm ASLEF, but I still keep myslef updated!).
I await developments (and updates as they become available would be appreciated!)
|
|
|
Post by q8 on May 2, 2005 1:50:54 GMT
You have to wonder though, does anyone at headoffice have their 'finger on the pulse'? -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dunno about that Colin, but they've certainly got their hands in the till!
|
|
|
Post by piccadillypilot on May 2, 2005 9:50:37 GMT
However if the ticket barriers are going to be unmanned (therefore left open), surely this is asking for huge revenue evasion?! Surely a strike by station staff would provide an excellent demonstration of the folly of the proposed reductions?
|
|
|
Post by Admin Team on May 2, 2005 21:07:20 GMT
To save starting a new thread, I thought I'd just bump this one! I was talking to one of my old mates who is an SA at Acton Town earlier today, and he informed me that they have new rotas comning into effect within the next few weeks. No-one knows for definite what the plans are, but (from what he's heard) the ticket office is only going to be open for a few hours a day, and the barriers will be unmanned for the majority of the day. There is also a rumour that once the last train has departed, the station will be manned only by a contract security guard rather than by a fully trained station supervisor as at present. I really dread to think where these staff cuts will end on the stations. Only opening the ticket office for a few hours a day is going to cause chaos! Acton Town is pretty busy every time I see it. Apparently, LUL want to encourage people to use the machines. However if the ticket barriers are going to be unmanned (therefore left open), surely this is asking for huge revenue evasion?! This is not to mention the fact that if a train operator needs assistance and the station only has one member of staff present, and he's dealing with something or someone else, this will cause major problems. Surprisingly, I haven't heard a huge amount from the RMT on this subject (I know I'm ASLEF, but I still keep myslef updated!). I await developments (and updates as they become available would be appreciated!) Certainly this is of concern to 'us' drivers for the reasons mentioned by Alan, though in some ways I'm not surprised that the RMT have kept their gobs shut as I'm pretty sure that the last 'settlement' they obtained for the station staff had a lot to do with it - so much it seems for protecting the jobs of their members.....
|
|