Time spent in stations

[Chris W]

Today whilst embarking @ Liverpool Street (Artery Line) due to the sardine like peak hour it took a long time for all passengers to alight. So much time that only a couple of passengers had managed to get on before the T/O announced that the doors were about to close - a couple more scurried on before they did.

I have seen it worse at Bank (NL) on one super-sardine occasion when the T/O announced about the doors closing while there were still a dozen or more (including myself) trying to get out - on that occasion fellow passengers blocked/held the doors open for us causing the T/O to reopen & reassess his actions

Whilst I am aware that it is important to ensure that a regular service is maintained, surely its important to allow sufficient time to allow cattle to get on/off & a fighting chance for some to get on (particularly at major interchange stations) - otherwise you end up with full platforms (resulting in station closures for H&S reasons) & irate passengers having to walk further/retrace their journeys.

Anyone else encounter such examples & what is the T/O position?

[Deleted]

Some t/ops can be quite quick on the buttons when closing doors. I tend to wait at least 20 seconds after opening up, especially at the busy[ier] stations...

[Colin]

I will use my best judgement at all times - and if it means I spend a little longer to give people a chance to get on, then so be it........................but if they're stupid enough to only use the same two doorways on the same middle car that everyone is exiting from....................

NOTE TO STUPID CUSTOMERS - A DISTRICT LINE TRAIN HAS 24 DOORWAYS AVAILABLE, NOT JUST THE TWO YOU ARE ALL QUEUEING UP TO USE!!

Mind you, some station staff can be guilty of holding up their SATs bat (telling a train operator it's safe to go) whilst people are still getting off - never mind the poor sods that haven't even attempted to board!!

[Chris M]

What would be the reaction if someone pulled a handle if they hadn't been given the opportunity to get off?
Also, what would revenue make of it if they were carried beyond where there ticket was valid due to this?

[Deleted]

NOTE TO STUPID CUSTOMERS - A DISTRICT LINE TRAIN HAS 24 DOORWAYS AVAILABLE, NOT JUST THE TWO YOU ARE ALL QUEUEING UP TO USE!!

ha ha - oh how I've longed to say something along similar lines ...............

[Chris W]

awkward42 said:

What would be the reaction if someone pulled a handle if they hadn't been given the opportunity to get off?
Also, what would revenue make of it if they were carried beyond where there ticket was valid due to this?

I have seen cattle pull the alarm on a C2C service before when they have been unable to get out in time - the T/O was not impressed

I expect that if a train is as crowded @ peak time as the one was the other day on the Central, ticket inspectors/revenue wouldn't be patrolling on the train, but would instead by at the gates as I have often seen during rush hour at a variety of stations

[compsci]

Especially off peak, most passengers seem to be unaware of the existance of more than the nearest two carriages of a train in a station where they approach it from on end, such as termini or Cambridge where the ticket hall is between the two numbered parts of the single through platform with bays either side..

Anyone who makes the arduous expedition to the front coach can pretty much get a bay to theselves off peak, while the rear carriages are full and standing, with screaming children thrown in for good measure. I'm not aware of any means of the train miraculously ending up facing the other way when it reaches KX.

[Chris M]

The same is true on FGW HSTs - there can be plenty of spaces at the "country" end of the train while the "London" end is full and standing. I often tell standing people about the free seats if I'm making my way to or from the buffet, but they never seem to believe me (or at least do anything about it)

[Deleted]

I have to admit having pulled the lever on a DLR train one time when the doors were closed before I (and a lot of other cattle) managed to get off of a packed train. I disappeared off the platform before any repercussions so I don't know how the train attendant reacted other than re-opening the doors.

[nexus6]

I always keep the train doors open for a reasonable amount of time, depending on the time of day and the station. But some T/Ops are a little quick on the draw and I know this can be infuriating. However, some customers do not help themselves; I have seen groups of people all piling through a single leaf door - what is that all about?

[Deleted]

I always walk all the way up to the front (or the back) of the train, where there is almost always room available. This allows me to stand in the doorway and watch the sheeple stuff themselves into the front carriage ;D

[Tubeboy]

I think, people tend to stand in a part of the train that will align with the exit of their intended station.

I do it usually, not all the time though.

Just would like to say thank you to the driver of T3** tuesday, I had two boxes of uniform, which are not easy to carry, I negotiated throught the PED doors, and he almost caught me, despite the doors opening only a few seconds earlier.

[Phones North Greenwich DMT ]

[Deleted]

Like that everywhere, on South Eastern, most people heading towards London in the AM, all pile in the front three carriages, while as the rear 2 are practically empty... I don't mind a slow wander up the full length of the platform... I should be used to walking the full length of platofrms by now anyway!

[ongarparknride]

Errr, excuse me but we don't seem to have any specific comments in reply to Chris M at reply #3 ?

I take the point that usually being accidentally carried on a station or two past one's intended destination might just involve a cross-subway re-connection, but in that event Revenue staff might well be able to make a case one had travelled outside the validity of one's ticket? Plus, of course, the threatened financial penalty and consequent operational delay of using a passenger alarm handle.

Any thoughts anyone, or will this join the blocked threads as further discussion being inappropriate? Certainly not my intention. :-(

[Colin]

**Admin hat on** OPR, can you please do me a personal favour and stop the digging about the style of moderation on this forum. This is the second thread today in which I've felt compelled to respond to your comments. If you have a particular issue, please PM me and we'll dicsuss it further. **Admin hat off**

Now onto your perfectly valid request:

awkward42 said:

What would be the reaction if someone pulled a handle if they hadn't been given the opportunity to get off?
Also, what would revenue make of it if they were carried beyond where there ticket was valid due to this?

I can't speak for revenue - other than I'd imagine it will depend on the 'luck of the draw'............you might get one who is willing to understand your predicament and show mercy, or you may get one that is hell bent on issuing a penalty fare to all & sundry .

As for pulling a handle, this will be dealt with initially in the same manner as all handles being pulled. If the train is part way out of the station, it'll be "tough luck mate" - if the train is still fully berthed in the platform, then we'd normally re-open the doors prior to dealing with whatever awaits us.........so in that instance the person will have achieved their aim and be long gone by the time any staff are on scene.

Whilst it is abuse of the facility, and should really be dealt with by prosecution (as per the threat that normally resides next to such devices) - I've never personally heard of anyone ever being prosecuted for it, and I don't imagine anyone ever will in the future .

[Deleted]

i always walk to the front, no one usually on them unless im just coming down the stairs when it comes in, then i just get on the nearest carriage

[Tubeboy]

awkward42 said:

What would be the reaction if someone pulled a handle if they hadn't been given the opportunity to get off?
Also, what would revenue make of it if they were carried beyond where there ticket was valid due to this?

Well I personally wouldn't pull the handle, however there are exceptions, and no doubt other people might do the same.

If say, a young child and their parent were separated by the doors.

As to revenue, let us hope common sense would prevail, however, we are talking about revenue, so ...........they would probably ask you to jump and down to see if you have any loose change!

[Phil]

colin said:

Whilst it is abuse of the facility,

Am I not correct in thinking that the handle is no longer considered an 'emergency stop' device but a means of alerting the driver to a situation that needs immediate action?

If so, a T/op preventing a passenger alighting by closing the doors too quickly must by definition be creating such a situation. In which case there is no abuse of the facility and no offence has been committed.........?

[jamesb]

rbruce1314 said:

Am I not correct in thinking that the handle is no longer considered an 'emergency stop' device but a means of alerting the driver to a situation that needs immediate action?

If so, a T/op preventing a passenger alighting by closing the doors too quickly must by definition be creating such a situation. In which case there is no abuse of the facility and no offence has been committed.........?

But it's still called a passenger emergency alarm... Wouldn't you have to use common sense in such a situation and be able to justify your actions should the need arise.

For example, it isn't an emergency if I miss my stop, I can always get off at the next stop and go back one. I couldn't justify pulling the alarm against the consequences of delaying the service, potentially trapping other passengers in the tunnel in the train behind, causing people to stand in the packed train in the station while the cause is investigated.

In another situation I saw a very elderly disabled man who shuffled very slowly towards the doors. By the time he reached the doors (from the seat right next to them) the doors closed, he shouted, somebody held the door, but he was so slow the driver closed them again, then his walking stick got stuck in them, then he got half way out and the driver closed them again and he got squashed. In that situation the driver didn't realize that he was disabled and he really could of injured himself, so I would have pulled the alarm. Equally I didn't want to embarrass the man further and the driver eventually saw what was happening and opened the doors.

For me, there would have to be an added factor above simply missing a stop - e.g. mother separated from child, person having a panic attack because they can't get off the train etc.

[Colin]

rbruce1314 said:

Am I not correct in thinking that the handle is no longer considered an 'emergency stop' device but a means of alerting the driver to a situation that needs immediate action?

If so, a T/op preventing a passenger alighting by closing the doors too quickly must by definition be creating such a situation. In which case there is no abuse of the facility and no offence has been committed.........?

Pulling the handle will apply the emergency brake - the passengers may not be aware of that, but that is what happens so in my eyes it is an emergency stop.

I suppose the reason nobody has been prosecuted is down to the fact that it's difficult to define the difference between what constitutes an emergency and what doesn't constitute an emergency...........and if the later, was the handle pulled with good intention or not?

I have personally seen someone pull a handle because he had disagreed with his girlfriend about which stop to alight at.........in the end she got off, and he didn't. Train op closes up as normal, then this guy has a pang of guilt about leaving his girlfriend and pulls the handle to get off. Train op re-opens doors and said man is gone. Now the whole train load of passengers has to wait while the train op (along with several station staff) comes 7 cars back (on 92ts) to re-set the handle.

Did that bloke abuse the facility?

[Deleted]

I've been on a C at whitechapel that had the handle pulled, the lovely op forgot to open the doors at all, just stopped for a few seconds and started to move off, cue angry passengers on both train and platform :<

[Deleted]

tubeboy said:

[Phones North Greenwich DMT ]

Good I experience problems with Jubilee drivers while on platform duties quite a lot - and guess who the punters take it out on? I appreciate drivers are in a hurry, but there is no need to be unprofessional.

[Dmitri]

colin said:

Did that bloke abuse the facility?

Yes, he did. There was no clear and present danger to anyone.

[Deleted]

Aside from the discussion over valid use of the PEA....

I remember it being drummed into us at Ashfield that passengers had a legal right to alight at any open station they chose*. So that if a T/Op closed the doors too fast then that was legitimate grounds for a passenger complaint and a corresponding rear-kicking for the T/Op.

In practice I doubt many customers would make an official complaint about missing their stop but it's certainly something worth bearing in mind.



*Assuming they have the relevant ticket, of course.

[Tomcakes]

colin said:

I can't speak for revenue - other than I'd imagine it will depend on the 'luck of the draw'............you might get one who is willing to understand your predicament and show mercy, or you may get one that is hell bent on issuing a penalty fare to all & sundry .

How could someone be fined though - if they're not able to get off the train due to a shortcoming on LU's fault it's hardly their problem is it?

I was on a 59ts on the Northern a long time ago (would have been 10 years near enough - eep), upon arrival at London Bridge the doors in our car and the adjacent one didn't open. We began to move so someone who wanted the stop pulled the handle. Eventually the guard appeared, who started raving at this guy before he explained what had happened. The guard then went rather quiet and ordered us into the next carriage before resetting the handle and we carried on.

[Deleted]

I have been at Upminster and an old lady or should i say middle to senior runs for the door and gets stuck. The driver left the doors stuck for 5 seconds and st this point the lady was screaming from the pain.

Anyway, i hit the plunger and he opens the doors straight away. He comes down the train steps in and goes who pulled the plunger. I was around 13 at the time, so i looked about 11/12. Anyway the old lady says this boy pushed it because i was stuck. He says ok, but then goes don't do that again. I said, well just because i am young doesn't mean i can't judge when someone is in pain.

The best part, the old lady goes, lay off him ya fat "b**££rd. I nearly burst out laughing. Does his thing and walks off.

But yeah funnyist thing i have ever seen.

I think the emergency really is there for emergencies. May they be low or high.
Well for instance:
Stopping the train because you missed your stop is bad and shouldn't be done. But in the case of late night and in a bad area. Then i see that a fit reason to pull it.

James