Jubilee line reliability worries

[Deleted]

May 29, 2012 12:38:37 GMT torquewrench said:

GTO Thyristors can fail relatively easily as they are sensitive components.

Considering they don't break down all the time, I'd imagine they are protected fairly well, and snubbed correctly - what on earth would blow out all 4 sets?

I seem to remember the traction protection systems on 96 stock kicking out the breakers when there was a positive earth before...

[Deleted]

May 30, 2012 2:43:47 GMT torquewrench said:

You will ALWAYS lose time if a train is being driven manually purely down to the fact that driverless trains are max tractive effort combined with step down braking!

I wouldn't refute this but with very extensive training and route knowledge, improved signal sighting and/or warning systems, manual operation can be just as good as automatic operation and lost time is minimal at worst.

For example a driving technique whereby the driver accelerates to line speed, coasts, finds the optimum point at which he/she can make a full service brake application stop at the mark putting the train into off and release at the last second stopping the train with virtually no jolt at all and opening the doors with the deadman released. This is definitely more superior to ATO's way of constantly applying power and braking which does nothing but knacker components out (i.e. when the 1992 stock motors had a nasty habit of burning out)

With regard to automatic opening of the doors on the jubilee, what is the actual point of taking away another safety critical responsibility from the drivers while they are still here? Dwell times apparently but all your going to do is save about a nano second that it would take for the driver to just press open.

[jardine01]

I am not a driver (I wish maybe in a few years time) but manual driving is not time wasting time unless you are driving slowly and braking too early. ATO is awful it will do long term damage to them take the 1992 stock for example motors falling off. I think PM driving is good as you can still drive to Target speed you can still use full traction and braking. I guess it will be even worse on the Northern line so much so according to rail magazine the trains software is being modified so the jerk effect is less noticeable has the 96 stock had this yet? Yes it is proven that ATO runs trains more efficiently. I am sure there is drivers who will think to hell with ATO lets turn the selector and go into PM mode!

[torquewrench]

Motors falling off because of ATO bring the primary reason? LOLOL! Seriously pal, learn a few things before posting because that is just utter nonsense.
I give up, there really are some people that you can't educate.

[alfie]

May 30, 2012 13:45:20 GMT @jardine01 said:

I am not a driver. I am sure there is drivers who will think to hell with ATO lets turn the selector and go into PM mode!

Neither am I, but I do know they aren't allowed to do that, on the Central line at least (although... ) and definitely not in tunnel.

[londonstuff]

May 30, 2012 13:45:20 GMT @jardine01 said:

ATO is awful it will do long term damage to them take the 1992 stock for example motors falling off.

I am sure there is drivers who will think to hell with ATO lets turn the selector and go into PM mode!

Really, Jardine, stop it. You're among people who know what you say is, frankly, utter drivel and I for one am fed up of reading false statements based on badly reworded Rail magazine articles or your views solely based on 2 minute clips of Youtube. You might have read yesterday when someone was asking about what let to a successful forum. It's the people and you're not exactly contributing to that.

You may be against ATO as you want to be a driver in a few years time but I'm afraid you might be fighting against the tide.

Please think before posting such rubbish in future. I for one am getting a bit fed up of visiting here and reading such inane posts.

[jardine01]

Whats the obsession with ATO and driverless trains? I do agree they have a good safety record but about Drivers who enjoy driving the train not sitting round pressing 2 ATO start buttons all day. It sounds like Train Driving is a dying job and there will be none in a few years time. Once again I am not stupid If you read rail magazine it tells you lots of in depth information on TBTC. I am tired of this yet on my other forum for my metro back at home I am the one having a go at people for not posting correctly!

[alfie]

Linkie to said forum, please?

You're asking about the obsession with ATO? It's you who goes on about it. I'm sure customers (See: pax) really don't care how their train is driven; so long it gets driven, good, and the faster the better.

Tuh. Another faulty train on the Jubbly is causing severe delays.

[jardine01]

The Jubilee line the most unreliable line in the world in my opinion!
ANOTHER faulty train my goodness me they are dropping like flies.

[castlebar]

jardine01 said: "The Jubilee line the most unreliable line in the world in my opinion!"

TRIPE!

jardine, just where in the world have you been??

[alfie]

Not often I agree with you castlebar.

Linkie to said forum, please?

*cough*

[torquewrench]

May 30, 2012 15:50:54 GMT castlebar said:

jardine01 said: "The Jubilee line the most unreliable line in the world in my opinion!"

TRIPE!

jardine, just where in the world have you been??

Careful m8! He reads rail magazines so therefore must know the current state of every metro system in the world, and how it works!

Jardine, you son don't have a clue.

[londonstuff]

May 30, 2012 15:31:29 GMT @jardine01 said:

Whats the obsession with ATO and driverless trains? I do agree they have a good safety record but about Drivers who enjoy driving the train not sitting round pressing 2 ATO start buttons all day. It sounds like Train Driving is a dying job and there will be none in a few years time. Once again I am not stupid If you read rail magazine it tells you lots of in depth information on TBTC. I am tired of this yet on my other forum for my metro back at home I am the one having a go at people for not posting correctly!

I'm not saying you are stupid but your posts are uninformed and the majority of the time quite false. I'm sorry to say that so blatantly but you simply don't seem to understand it said any other way. I don't blame you for not living in London nor for being too young to work on LU but your comments, gleaned from magazines or YouTube, consistently show your lack of understanding but you try to tell people far more experienced than you how or why things work the way they do. Why not take a listening approach to learn more? Mind you, that's been said to you before with no effect.

In one respect you're right, train driving probably is a dying job and by the time you get to train driving age existing drivers will be seeing their jobs out until their pensions by transferring to non-ATO lines.

Try asking LU about whether train drivers pressing two buttons all day comes into their strategic planning and you'll get laughed out of the room - it's been going on for 40+ years already on the Vic and basically 20 on the Central. Expect the majority to be converted in the next ten years.

As for your comment asking about my obsession with ATO - don't make me laugh.

[Chris M]

May 28, 2012 22:32:02 GMT torquewrench said:

Um there was driver error.... Over riding a safety system to gain movement WITHOUT a pilot light. Its in plain black and white under observations on the RAIB report if you'd like to read it.

It's not quite as simple as that though.
Yes, the safety system was overridden, but it was done so with the full knowledge and authority of the relevant people. The failure was that no member of railway staff visually ensured all the doors were closed once the safety system had been overridden. The computer system couldn't determine the state of the doors so this couldn't be the driver. Due to conditions on the train and passenger action the only way this could have been done on the train was with a staff member at every doorway - for which there was nowhere near enough people available. The layout of the track may have also made it impossible to do from outside the train, I don't know and the report doesn't say.
As with most serious incidents, it wasn't a single failure but a combination of several.

[Deleted]

May 30, 2012 14:20:33 GMT torquewrench said:

Motors falling off because of ATO bring the primary reason? LOLOL!

Yes he is wrong on that one, of course it was more the rather horrifying amount of vibration stressing the bolts holding the traction motors.

ATO however did play a large part in causing motor flashovers. The power/brake/power/brake nature of ATO's driving style does wear out components faster and until an ATO system is built that drives as professionally as a fully trained human then LUL/TLL/alstom or whoever will need to replace and repair components more regularly due to the extra wear and tear.

[a60]

I concur, the motor falling out was more to do with poor design. I think it's fair to say that ATO never even came into the spectrum with the Chancery Lane incident.

[Rich32]

Gents.

Can we please keep the discussion calm and civil.

Many thanks

[Deleted]

Having myself had issue with his posts before, whilst in a particularly bad mood I might add, I'd like to offer a conditional defence of Jardine01.

He's just a 15 year old boy living in the North East who's actual real life experience of the tube system can't ever be anything other than limited to the occasional visit to London. To compensate for this he uses BVE simulators and snippets of information gleaned from the web in order to formulate his posts, most of which concern the speed of trains and his worthy aspirations to become an underground train driver.

He can see these aspirations being dashed by the advent of automatic systems and is understandably worried and upset.

Whilst he has obviously made a series of ill-informed and contradictory posts on this forum I'd applaud the lad for showing an interest in something that doesn't involve fighting, drugs or some other antisocial behaviour so often prevalent amongst his peers.

To Jardine I'd say listen and learn from the criticism levelled at you, particularly from those who work for LUL and have far more knowledge than you can possibly have at 15. Also, listen to the professional teachers on here who are only just attempting to help develop the quality of your posting.

To everyone else, I know it can be irritating sometimes, as I sometimes find but try and cut this enthusiastic train-mad speed-freak a bit of slack. He's just a kid and this, albeit a very good one, is only a forum after all.

Jardine, to put everything into perspective, here's something really, really fast. No ATO or any other automatic controls in sight!!............ ;D

4,454mph top whack I seem to recall!!



ATB

Rich

[North End]

May 28, 2012 17:35:27 GMT @delboy200 said:

From what I have read about the Kentish Town incident in the paper, the driver was a victim of a rather monumental cock up made by FCC and was overwhelmed by the number of passengers wanting to get out as he had no support, some of the passengers tried to leave the train.

I wouldn't be looking to blame the driver for the FCC incident.

A physical check was made to ensure all doors were closed, at the time the interlock was cut out. The fact that the train subsequently moved with doors open was because the *passengers* chose to open them again.

Whilst we can debate whether their actions were understandable in the circumstances, the fact is the passengers were working against the staff on the train.

It should have been clear that the staff were closing the doors in order to prepare for movement, so I don't agree with the RAIB's assertion that a PA might have helped the situation.

In context, in all the years I have been travelling by rail, I have only ever once been stuck on a train between stations for more than 1 hour (and that was due to the train striking and killing a person between stations). The chances of being involved in this type of incident are extremely low. Nonetheless it is clear things did go wrong that night, and the railway industry in general did not seem to have the processes in place to ensure the incident was handled smoothly.

Unfortunately, and speaking from experience, you will always get a small core of passengers who choose to become irate. These people need to learn that, however unpleasant the situation they are in, getting arsey with the staff dealing with the problem is counter-productive. Such actions *will* delay the situation further simply became the staff's time becomes directed at dealing with the attention-seekers, and in extreme circumstances if such behaviour pressurises someone in to making a mistake, could delay things a lot longer, or compromise safety.

[jardine01]

Not being rude Whistlekiller but it would of been a bit more professional to send this in a PM rather than on this thread.

[alfie]

He's standing up for you jardine.. and has done so before!

[castlebar]

.....and on this occasion, I agree with Alfie.

[Fahad]

May 31, 2012 6:14:18 GMT @jardine01 said:

Not being rude Whistlekiller but it would of been a bit more professional to send this in a PM rather than on this thread.

I understand if people think I'm unqualified to post about this, having been here for but a few days, but I've been lurking for longer than jardine01's been here, and would like to share my opinion.

jardine01, whistlekiller was trying to give you some formative advice on how to become a better poster. You clearly do not know everything about the network, and that's alright - most of us don't.

At the moment, many people appear to dislike reading your posts. This may be due to the fact that you do act like you know more than them about the network, despite them working on it and you attending a high school hundreds of kilometres from it.

You can learn a lot from the wise people here, and I do fully believe that you have the potential to make a useful contribution and post insightful things people will want to read. You won't realise this potential with a know-it-all attitude.

We don't dislike you. We dislike some of your posts.

May 30, 2012 15:31:29 GMT @jardine01 said:

Whats the obsession with ATO and driverless trains? I do agree they have a good safety record but about Drivers who enjoy driving the train not sitting round pressing 2 ATO start buttons all day.

I do understand how you feel that you won't actually get to become a train driver - I feel the same, but ask yourself this. Which is more important, the safety of thousands of people, or the enjoyment of one?

[Deleted]

May 31, 2012 7:24:48 GMT Fahad said:

I do understand how you feel that you won't actually get to become a train driver - I feel the same, but ask yourself this. Which is more important, the safety of thousands of people, or the enjoyment of one?

To stick a spanner in the works, ATO is no different to ATP on it's own in terms of safety and it could be argued with the correct extra safety systems the latter is safer! Yes, the reverse argument is also there, but there are certain circumstances that an ATO system can't deal with that a human can...

[Fahad]

I agree completely, but was just questioning a thought process of jardine01's

[plasmid]

The 96ts seem to be failing every day or two where as the 95ts are still running like a dream. I'd even go as far as saying the 96ts are woefully inadequate.

And that Diamond Jubilee 96ts breaking down makes it look a complete laughing stock (no pun intended).

[Deleted]

I'd suggest it's problems with the VOBCs interacting with the trains given the constant failures!

96 stock WERE far more reliable before TBTC. The old signals did fail quite often, but trains having major issues seemed far fewer.

[jardine01]

Apparently the D stock are the most reliable I remember recalling this on the the old the tube tv series.
However it will remain to be seen how reliable the 95 stock is when TBTC is installed.
I hope this post is Ok I am just saying my opinion.

[Deleted]

The northern is definately the most reliable line (and I stress this) I use I wouldn't be surprised if it was the most reliable on the combine at the moment. This is comming from someone who uses the line on a near daily basis for leisure and work, it certainly performs well in the peaks and never lets me down.

The few occasions I use the jubilee usually off peak on the other hand, I have been delayed substantually, quite a few times.

I really do hope TBTC gets off to a better start on the northern, I know the system will have it's teething troubles but its really been a saga on the jubilee.

[Deleted]

I believe 1973 stock are more reliable, Jardine.