Is there any signal game where..be LU signaler

[ikar]

Is there any signal game where you can be L.U.L. signaler (ex. SimSig-North London Line)

[Deleted]

Not that I'm aware of. There was a one in development by someone (MetApprentice I think) but not sure how far that has developed.

PC Rail did make a version of Earl's Court (comissioned by LUL to train new signallers), but due to security reasons it was never released publicly.

[ikar]

It's a pitty that it is not relesed.

But it's no need for security reasons if you say are the signaler of the 1980 timetable

[Deleted]

It still contains the signals/points etc...

Sam

[ikar]

Why would someone attack a signal?

I imagine a terrorist saying I am going to put a bomb on a signal A257 because it failed and I was late for work

[citysig]

You must, by now, be realising a theme to some of these threads. The one that goes somewhere along the lines of, "There are many things on LU which are not available for general public consumption."

Regardless of how anyone may use the information given to them by items such as a simulator, LU has put this kind of item into the above mentioned catergory.

It's not always about the terrorists either. One day you may become aware of the bigger picture.

[Tomcakes]

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, does NR have a problem with such simulators? What's the difference (is it anything but different companies, different policies?). Are track layouts private - can they ever be, as the public can see them all they want. Same for signal numbers - they're all on plates and easily observed.

Does anyone know BTW if LU have concerns over BVE/MSTS routes portraying the tube?

As to signalling sims, there was a project to create such a program freeware a while ago - a beta was done for Epping - Onger but I'm not sure it's still around.

Finally ikar I wouldn't imagine Richard Griffin would be too pleased about your avatar.

[ikar]

tombeevers said:

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, does NR have a problem with such simulators? What's the difference (is it anything but different companies, different policies?). Are track layouts private - can they ever be, as the public can see them all they want. Same for signal numbers - they're all on plates and easily observed.

Does anyone know BTW if LU have concerns over BVE/MSTS routes portraying the tube?

As to signalling sims, there was a project to create such a program freeware a while ago - a beta was done for Epping - Onger but I'm not sure it's still around.

Finally ikar I wouldn't imagine Richard Griffin would be too pleased about your avatar.

Why?

[solidbond]

ikar said:

tombeevers said:

Finally ikar I wouldn't imagine Richard Griffin would be too pleased about your avatar.

Why?

If you are questioning why RG wouldn't be happy about your avatar, I would say it is because you are linking directly to his website (squarewheels) and therefore using his bandwidth to display the avatar. In addition you need to be aware of copyright issues when using pictures that are on other peoples websites. If there are no copyright issues with the picture, then I would suggest you put a picture up on a free picture hosting site and then link your avatar to that. There are a number of sites that allow you to do that. PM me, or any of the other admins, if you need further information about this. In the meantime, I have removed the link for your avatar.

[citysig]

tombeevers said:

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, does NR have a problem with such simulators? What's the difference (is it anything but different companies, different policies?). Are track layouts private - can they ever be, as the public can see them all they want. Same for signal numbers - they're all on plates and easily observed.

Does anyone know BTW if LU have concerns over BVE/MSTS routes portraying the tube?

It is a very very complex matter, full of rules and also quite a few grey areas.

NR simulations, whilst normally quite accurate, are generally operated differently to the area they portray. For example, an area under "your" control may, in real life, be worked by several people using very different equipment. I believe if the PC Rail simulation was first used as a training aid, it may have been a bit too close to reality to be released.

There are many such simulations which have slightly different layouts to the real ones. NR in general, do not seem to take the same hard and fast attitude as LU. The authors of such simulations would be the best ones to ask whether they sought permission from NR to release the simulations to the public.

Whatever the difference between the two, just because they are both railway companies, does not mean they will issue identical rules on matters such as this.

For some areas it's a shame, but in others it can prevent some people obtaining "too much information."

[Tomcakes]

Is there any coherant policy from LU on this subject? (Probarbly a rhetorical question but hey)

[Deleted]

tombeevers said:

Is there any coherant policy from LU on this subject? (Probarbly a rhetorical question but hey)

;D Coherant and LU in the same sentence?! ;D Never thought I'd see the day!

[piccadillypilot]

alanl said:

tombeevers said:

Is there any coherant policy from LU on this subject? (Probarbly a rhetorical question but hey)

;D Coherant and LU in the same sentence?! ;D Never thought I'd see the day!

Perhaps it's one to be treasured, kept in a secure location, taken out and gazed upon fondly on suitable occasions?

[citysig]

tombeevers said:

Is there any coherant policy from LU on this subject? (Probarbly a rhetorical question but hey)

There may be one somewhere, but I have yet to stumble upon it. I think they treat the issue as one of those "We'll deal with it as it arises" matters, and it may very well depend on who is in the office on the day you ask for permission.

If there is a policy, they have never made it very public, apart from the usual laws surrounding security and copyright (and a simulation could effectively fall into both catergories.) I would imagine our Press Office may know, or be able to find out.

[Deleted]

we should write our own. we have enough information and technical ability between us. we got people who work for LU who could ask about it....

this all actually has a positive side. If someone slags off LU saying they are incompitent and unable to run the rails, drag em into an Office and say: "you think you can do better: try your self!"

[piccadillypilot]

citysig said:

I would imagine our Press Office may know, or be able to find out.

As the saying goes, don't hold your breath. Most of them don't even know what a railway is.

[compsci]

Copyright is a bit weird in this case. It protects original works from unauthorised reproduction, which would certainly include any LU track diagrams or similar, so anyone copying a track diagram to create one for a simulation would certainly infringe copyright.

However, if someone manages to create an identical work without any reference to the one created by another person (proving this either way can be rather tricky), then copyright will offer no protection to the person who created it first. This would likely be the case if someone managed to create such a simulation just by careful observation out of train windows and creating guessed timetables by observing trains in service.

[ikar]

That's the thing that is good in communism. Everything belongs to people.

[chris]

ikar said:

That's the thing that is good in communism. Everything belongs to people.

Well, it belongs to the government.

[Tomcakes]

professorfox said:

Copyright is a bit weird in this case. It protects original works from unauthorised reproduction, which would certainly include any LU track diagrams or similar, so anyone copying a track diagram to create one for a simulation would certainly infringe copyright. However, if someone manages to create an identical work without any reference to the one created by another person (proving this either way can be rather tricky), then copyright will offer no protection to the person who created it first. This would likely be the case if someone managed to create such a simulation just by careful observation out of train windows and creating guessed timetables by observing trains in service.

Most certainly very tricky. Would the use of diagrams etc as a *reference* point be included in that? It's something I've been wary of throughout the development of the Picc into BVE, I have a copy of an old WTT but have created a fictional diagram to avoid any possible skirmishes, and not included the names of the people who kindly supplied me with diagrams etc. for obvious reasons.

Interestingly it's possible to buy old WTTs etc at Acton, I gather stuff that LU were chucking out but instead gave to the museum to sell on...

[Deleted]

they're so fussed about signal IDs/Trackj Diagrams but they havn't shut this place down!

[compsci]

tombeevers said:

Would the use of diagrams etc as a *reference* point be included in that?

Note: I am not a lawyer (but I do know some who I could ask for further clarification)

Copyright covers the manner in which an idea is expressed, such as a track diagram. It does not cover the idea itself, such as the fact that Earl's Court is a certain distance from Baron's Court, and the tunnel covers a particular route between the two.

Whether there are separate laws which do cover this is another matter.

[Deleted]

so it is perfectly alright to make your own route manuals and publish them, so long as they are not similarish to the originals

[compsci]

jn114 said:

so it is perfectly alright to make your own route manuals and publish them, so long as they are not similarish to the originals

Quoting one of my lecturers, "The law is not a programming language." I believe the exact meaning of "Derivative Work" is not defined in the relevant acts, and it is hence for the judiciary to decide what the meaning should be in each case.

Such sweeping statements are therefore dangerous.

[Deleted]

err... long words.... can that be more plain englishified....

[Tomcakes]

It is plain English .

But to break it down... (and remember IANAL)

compsci's (I would presume that's short for computer science BTW?) quote sums it all up really - "the law is not a programming language" but is flexible (don't think it has syntax errors, either ). So they don't define exactly what to do, rather leave it for the judiciary to decide on a case-by-case basis.

Hope that's a *bit* simpler...

"they're so fussed about signal IDs/Trackj Diagrams but they havn't shut this place down!"

TBH I don't know if they could have this shut down - nobody posts stuff that's really confidential (well OK people post the occasional track diagram from the 40's, or the times of a particular train but not post whole timetables or line diagrams), and even if they did have concerns I'd imagine they'd just ask nicely for things to be toned down. (Virtually) nothing said here isn't in the public domain anyway.

[Deleted]

oh ok.. un confuddlded

[Colin]

tombeevers said:

nobody posts stuff that's really confidential (well OK people post the occasional track diagram from the 40's, or the times of a particular train but not post whole timetables or line diagrams), and even if they did have concerns I'd imagine they'd just ask nicely for things to be toned down. (Virtually) nothing said here isn't in the public domain anyway.

Exactly.

[Deleted]

alanl said:

Not that I'm aware of. There was a one in development by someone (MetAppr

Aye, sadly due to other commitments, it has been put on hold, should be back on track, so to speak, soon!