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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2013 10:48:30 GMT
On the tfl single fare finder, Camden Road to Stratford is £1.60/£1.50. Camden Road to Stratford International DLR is £3.20/£2.70.
It appears that for any route starting west of Dalston Kingsland and interchanging at Stratford it's automatically assumed that you've gone via Zone 1 Shoreditch unless you touch the pink validator at Stratford.
My opinion is a) I imagine a lot of people changing at Stratford to/from the Overground are not aware they are "avoiding Zone 1" by doing so and therefore don't touch the pink validator - especially as such journeys were zone 2-3 journeys before the Highbury-Dalston Junction link was opened. b) Why would anyone actually want to go via Zone 1 for this journey e.g. get off a Canonbury, go to Shadwell, change to the DLR, change at Canning Town..?
Cheers Doug
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Post by snoggle on Feb 28, 2013 22:51:15 GMT
On the tfl single fare finder, Camden Road to Stratford is £1.60/£1.50. Camden Road to Stratford International DLR is £3.20/£2.70. It appears that for any route starting west of Dalston Kingsland and interchanging at Stratford it's automatically assumed that you've gone via Zone 1 Shoreditch unless you touch the pink validator at Stratford. My opinion is a) I imagine a lot of people changing at Stratford to/from the Overground are not aware they are "avoiding Zone 1" by doing so and therefore don't touch the pink validator - especially as such journeys were zone 2-3 journeys before the Highbury-Dalston Junction link was opened. b) Why would anyone actually want to go via Zone 1 for this journey e.g. get off a Canonbury, go to Shadwell, change to the DLR, change at Canning Town..? Cheers Doug The PAYG fares system is riddled with problems and "illogical" routes. The network is obviously extremely complex and people have loads of options as to how to travel from a to b. However there are instances where TfL could offer routing based options but do not. As in your case the "logical" route is actually an alternative fare rather than the base or default fare. There is also the related issue that if you have a Travelcard without Zone 1 on it that you are also bound by the TfL Fare Finder routes. Even if you stay within the zones on your card between a and b you could be charged an extension fare if TfL have determined that the default fare (and route) is via Zone 1. If there is an alternative fare / route, requiring use of a pink validator, which matches the zones on your card then you must touch your Oyster Card on the pink validator to avoid the extension fare being levied. It is only in recent months that the stickers on Pink Validators have included reference to "non Zone 1 Travelcards". Previously they only mentioned PAYG even though the Conditions of Carriage make it clear that Travelcard holders are required to touch on routeing validators in some cases. You only have to read the privately provided "Oyster Rail" website to see the confusion amongst passengers and the sheer complexity of some of the rules that the website owner explains in providing answers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 9:12:44 GMT
Maybe is TfL promoted the pink readers abit more just like the way they promote a load of other stuff, lots more people might start using them!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 10:54:17 GMT
Many thanks for the "Oyster Rail" website link. I've had a quick look over there and it appears that the problem is a new one since late 2012, as previously the pink validators were only for PAYG users (I should add, my problems arose from having Zone 1 fares added on when using a Zone 2-3 Travelcard).
Now, I’ve got my refunds from the Oyster Helpdesk, so maybe no harm done. However, the Oyster Helpdesk said I could contact TfL re. my concerns about the fare issues, and TfL Customer Services have been spectacularly unhelpful, stating:
1) Pink Validators have been in place since 2009 so everyone should be aware to use them (yes, but for PAYG only until late 2012) 2) Passengers who are using a certain route to “avoid Zone 1” need to prove this, otherwise it’s their fault they get charged. (going back to my Camden Rd -> Stratford International example – why would anyone take a 66 min journey via Zone 2/1/2/3 involving three changes when they could take a 36 min journey via Zone 2/3 involving one change?) 3) The default route according to the fare rules for Canonbury to Stratford High Street DLR is via Shadwell + Canning Town and it is completely logical for this to be a Zone 1 route. (try getting that route on the Journey Planner!) 4) For a journey from Canonbury to Langdon Park which I took earlier this month, it was “obvious” that I’d gone via Zone 1 with an interchange at Shadwell as I hadn’t touched the validator at Stratford. (I did point out that I’d have had to jump the barriers at Shadwell Overground to do this…)
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Post by snoggle on Mar 1, 2013 12:35:20 GMT
Many thanks for the "Oyster Rail" website link. I've had a quick look over there and it appears that the problem is a new one since late 2012, as previously the pink validators were only for PAYG users (I should add, my problems arose from having Zone 1 fares added on when using a Zone 2-3 Travelcard).
Now, I’ve got my refunds from the Oyster Helpdesk, so maybe no harm done. However, the Oyster Helpdesk said I could contact TfL re. my concerns about the fare issues, and TfL Customer Services have been spectacularly unhelpful, stating:
1) Pink Validators have been in place since 2009 so everyone should be aware to use them (yes, but for PAYG only until late 2012) 2) Passengers who are using a certain route to “avoid Zone 1” need to prove this, otherwise it’s their fault they get charged. (going back to my Camden Rd -> Stratford International example – why would anyone take a 66 min journey via Zone 2/1/2/3 involving three changes when they could take a 36 min journey via Zone 2/3 involving one change?) 3) The default route according to the fare rules for Canonbury to Stratford High Street DLR is via Shadwell + Canning Town and it is completely logical for this to be a Zone 1 route. (try getting that route on the Journey Planner!) 4) For a journey from Canonbury to Langdon Park which I took earlier this month, it was “obvious” that I’d gone via Zone 1 with an interchange at Shadwell as I hadn’t touched the validator at Stratford. (I did point out that I’d have had to jump the barriers at Shadwell Overground to do this…)
I don't believe that the issue here just arose in late 2012 although that might be when you personally discovered it. I had a Z23 Travelcard from early 2012 and was fastidious in touching in and out and using pink validators where required in order to avoid the "traps" of unwanted extension fares. I spent an inordinate amount of time using the Single Fare Finder to work out what routes had alternative routes / fares and where to touch in and out and "touch pink". On occasion this had to be done "on the road" using my mobile where the station name "auto select" function on the Fare Finder nearly drove me bonkers! My biggest bug bear is Clapham Junction where there are no pink validators. With the Overground offering a viable, if slow, cheaper alternative to going via Zone 1 you would expect there to be a range of fares onto the SWT routes that radiate from CJ. Unfortunately there are no such non Z1 fares if you start on the GOBLIN route or some NLL stns. If you travel from Blackhorse Road to Wandsworth Town you are assumed to have travelled via Z1 even if you go round via the Overground. The only way to "trick" the system, if you hold a Z23 Travelcard, is to exit and re-enter at CJ to "break" the journey. Unforunately if you are a PAYG user you would be charged twice if you do this so it is pointless but you would still be charged for a route you did not use. Ditto for Wimbledon - you can change at West Brompton and use LU and avoid the Z1 charge by touching the pink validator but you will be charged for Zone 1 if you stay on the Overground to CJ and catch a SWT train to Wimbledon. Apparently this is because SWT refuse to have pink validators at CJ as they are a "fraud risk". Now I only know all of this because I used to work, years ago, in LU Ticketing and have maintained an interest in developments. I also asked a LU expert some pertinent questions about how things work before I left TfL. In other words I'm a bit of a ticketing geek. If I was a normal member of the public then I would really, really struggle from the readily available info to know what to do. I think TfL have a load of work to do to demystify the ticketing system despite their efforts to date. They've seemingly just launched some new "Oyster Smart" videos about how to use the system but even they are not specific about the fare finder / route logic being linked to how non Zone 1 Travelcards are handled with respect to the need to pay for extension fares. The Oyster website is also still just saying PAYG users must use pink validators and yet stickers on the validators now refer to non Z1 travelcards too. I should perhaps exercise caution about my experience with the Customer Services department. Let's just say they can do much, much better and leave it at that!
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Post by melikepie on Mar 1, 2013 14:31:42 GMT
Actually I've noticed another anomaly. NR fares are more expensive at £3.80 2-6 compared to £2.70 on LU (peak fares). How comes?
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Post by stevo on Mar 1, 2013 14:45:10 GMT
Jump off quick at Highbury and use the pink validator - rear door of front car
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Post by snoggle on Mar 1, 2013 17:12:57 GMT
Actually I've noticed another anomaly. NR fares are more expensive at £3.80 2-6 compared to £2.70 on LU (peak fares). How comes? Not sure it is an anomaly. From memory there has always been a considerable peak premium of NR only fares when compared to the TfL tariff. This is presumably because the TOCs have long been allowed to "price up" the peak. Now we have PAYG covering NR as well as TfL services the differences are thrown into stark relief when you put the tariffs side by side.
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Post by metrailway on Mar 1, 2013 21:02:38 GMT
Maybe is TfL promoted the pink readers abit more just like the way they promote a load of other stuff, lots more people might start using them! I may be a tad cynical, but why would TfL strongly advertise pink readers? TfL are not going to promote something which would lose them money!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 23:00:04 GMT
Maybe is TfL promoted the pink readers abit more just like the way they promote a load of other stuff, lots more people might start using them! I may be a tad cynical, but why would TfL strongly advertise pink readers? TfL are not going to promote something which would lose them money! Thats what I was trying to get at
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Post by metrailway on Mar 2, 2013 0:02:55 GMT
I may be a tad cynical, but why would TfL strongly advertise pink readers? TfL are not going to promote something which would lose them money! Thats what I was trying to get at :facepalm: It seems my mind is not firing on all cylinders tonight!
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Post by snoggle on Mar 2, 2013 11:47:50 GMT
Maybe is TfL promoted the pink readers abit more just like the way they promote a load of other stuff, lots more people might start using them! I may be a tad cynical, but why would TfL strongly advertise pink readers? TfL are not going to promote something which would lose them money! While I understand the cynicism TfL are a public body that is democratically accountable. It has already had a series of "awkward" headlines and political criticism about Oyster overcharging and the difficulties in getting refunds. It has had to spend money (probably hundreds of thousands or millions of pounds) to update the Oyster account system and change the rules about occasional missed validations and instituting auto refunds. Not being clear to the public about pink validators is just another dimension of the previous problems that heaped opprobrium on their heads about "ripping off passengers". It does not take much for these issues to "come to life" and then become difficult or damaging for the organisation. Being fair, clear and open with your customers is a mark of good customer service. Thinking ahead TfL will have to get the pink validator issue sorted because once contactless bank cards are accepted for travel on the tube and overground people will really start to see how much they are being charged for journeys when it comes straight out of their bank accounts. People do scrutinise their PAYG usage today but a new facility will be be scrutinised more closely.
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