72 Stock to Serve Until 2030's

[North End]

May 31, 2017 19:11:14 GMT t697 said:

May 31, 2017 18:52:00 GMT superteacher said:

Well the 1986 stock didn't exactly lead to a great production train (1992 stock).

Trains like 86TS add many years and much cost to the overall renewal programme. Better in my view to concentrate on a proper process towards the train you really intend for fleet builds. Things like 86TS never get fully sorted because everyone knows they are not going to be just genuine pre-production.

The 86 stock was more about trialling new concepts I think rather than producing a final product.

The 09 stock didn't have prototypes, just pre production units, and they ended up on a field in Cumbria! It's probably one of those things where it is hard to win - unless procuring a tried-and-tested design.

[Chris M]

Most of what passengers care about is what they see and experience above the sole bar, which can be previewed, tested and refined using static mockups much cheaper than procuring one-off prototype units.

[londoner]

questions.london.gov.uk/QuestionSearch/searchclient/questions/question_294667

TfL plans to modernise the Bakerloo line as part of the Deep Tube programme and will begin to introduce new signalling and trains on the line from the late 2020s.

In advance of this, TfL is carrying out a range of works to extend the life of the Bakerloo line fleet, making sure that the trains can continue to provide a good service until the line is modernised. As part of this TfL has recently replaced all of the seat cushions and fabric with a new moquette fabric.

TfL will begin work in July to improve internal parts of train carriages. This includes replacing and/or repairing several parts of the interior. The work is scheduled to be completed by the end of the year.

By mid-2018, TfL is planning on installing LED lighting throughout the train carriages and by the end of 2019 all structural repairs to the fleet will be completed. These improvements will include two wheelchair bays in each carriage, additional hand poles and a public information system that announces the next station as it approaches.

[Ben]

"two wheelchair bays in each carriage"

ot
Given the platform curves and heights on the bloo, this is humourous.
/ot

More relevantly, how will this be accomplished in the cars with transverse seating - presumably to minimise work one side will be removed totally? Where will the equipment go currently under the seats? Sounds in some ways possibly more involved than the 90s refurb.

[Chris M]

I thought the plan was 2 wheelchair bays in each train?

[domh245]

Jul 29, 2017 23:18:19 GMT Chris M said:

I thought the plan was 2 wheelchair bays in each train?

Presumably that is still the intention - 14 wheelchair bays in a train (ie 2 per car) would surely be a record for LU

[alpinejohn]

Jul 29, 2017 23:18:19 GMT Chris M said:

I thought the plan was 2 wheelchair bays in each train?

You may be right - that certainly reflects earlier reports in rail media.

In the current financial climate the idea of committing to more work than strictly needed on fairly old rolling stock seems quite unlikely.

I am sure that since the 72 stock were launched there have been a lot of technical developments especially in electrical gear. This may allow far more miniature equipment to perform the task which previously needed quite bulky equipment to be stored under seats, so by a combination of miniaturisation and juggling kit around within a car they could probably remove whatever is under a couple of seats on just one side of a car to create a flat space for wheelchairs or standees. I guess if they now think it is possible to do this trick in every car in the train the result would be a significant increase in the crush load standing passenger space even if it means reducing the seated capacity of each train. Certainly like most lines the 72's can be rammed during some peak hour journeys so perhaps this is what they intend rather than just a typo?

[Chris M]

It's not just trains though, with 2 wheelchair bays per car you need level access to each car. This means you need at least 7 humps (or possibly dips on the platforms shared with LO, increasing the gap to those trains) per platform or to raise the entire platform (more than a few and the humps could start to make the platform less safe, particularly for the infirm) and that isn't going to come cheap (and raising an entire platform will be disruptive. If the next generation of trains have the same floor height then the money spent wont be wasted, but humps will either be wasted or restrict the next generation of stock to the same door spacing.

Looking at a map there are only three Bakerloo line stations marked as having step-free access to the platform (Willesden Junction, Wembley Central and Harrow & Wealdstone), but such access is coming to Paddington when Crossrail opens and there are step-free interchanges at Baker Street, Oxford Circus and Queen's Park so that is 12 platforms at minimum. I also remember something about step-free access at Waterloo, but can't remember if that included the Bakerloo line or not, so possibly 14.

[crusty54]

Jul 30, 2017 8:11:23 GMT Chris M said:

It's not just trains though, with 2 wheelchair bays per car you need level access to each car. This means you need at least 7 humps (or possibly dips on the platforms shared with LO, increasing the gap to those trains) per platform or to raise the entire platform (more than a few and the humps could start to make the platform less safe, particularly for the infirm) and that isn't going to come cheap (and raising an entire platform will be disruptive. If the next generation of trains have the same floor height then the money spent wont be wasted, but humps will either be wasted or restrict the next generation of stock to the same door spacing.

Looking at a map there are only three Bakerloo line stations marked as having step-free access to the platform (Willesden Junction, Wembley Central and Harrow & Wealdstone), but such access is coming to Paddington when Crossrail opens and there are step-free interchanges at Baker Street, Oxford Circus and Queen's Park so that is 12 platforms at minimum. I also remember something about step-free access at Waterloo, but can't remember if that included the Bakerloo line or not, so possibly 14.

The legislation applies to the trains not the stations.

[Chris M]

But surely the trains are not wheelchair accessible if there is step to get in

[crusty54]

Jul 30, 2017 10:41:27 GMT Chris M said:

But surely the trains are not wheelchair accessible if there is step to get in

Given the staircases at most of the stations they won't be.

[Chris M]

As I noted above there are at least 12 platforms that are accessible to wheelchair users.

[crusty54]

Jul 30, 2017 11:37:03 GMT Chris M said:

As I noted above there are at least 12 platforms that are accessible to wheelchair users.

so many more platforms that will not be wheelchair friendly

[tjw]

hmmm reading the above I will tell my wheel chair bound friend that it is best to stick with the taxi.

I do wonder if we discriminate against more people by removing seats...

[class411]

Jul 30, 2017 14:41:05 GMT tjw said:

hmmm reading the above I will tell my wheel chair bound friend that it is best to stick with the taxi.

I do wonder if we discriminate against more people by removing seats...

A very good point.

I have often pondered if the money spent on wheelchair accessibility by LU would be far better spent in providing free taxi journeys to people in wheelchairs.

Such a move would allow less stressful journeys for wheelchair users, and would allow LU to use capital for other improvements.

[crusty54]

Jul 30, 2017 14:41:05 GMT tjw said:

hmmm reading the above I will tell my wheel chair bound friend that it is best to stick with the taxi.

I do wonder if we discriminate against more people by removing seats...

the space will also be used for pushchairs and heavy luggage.

[Deleted]

The point about two wheelchair spaces per car is incorrect. There will be two wheelchair spaces in one car of every train. The equipment is being moved from under the transverse seats in the north end trailer cars to make space for this.

[superteacher]

Mod comment:

This thread is not the place to discuss disabled access in general. Let's stick to the 1972 stock, as per the thread title. Thanks.

[phoenixcronin]

Jul 30, 2017 17:55:33 GMT @tsquare said:

The point about two wheelchair spaces per car is incorrect. There will be two wheelchair spaces in one car of every train. The equipment is being moved from under the transverse seats in the north end trailer cars to make space for this.

There are no transverse seats in the trailer cars. Presumably you mean the central bay of longitudinal seats?

[Deleted]

Oops! Yes, sorry.

[carltona]

I've not noticed any wheelchair bays appearing yet. I expect they will be useful for pushchairs and luggage, should the public notice them eventually.

[metman]

By North end trailer cars do you mean the 45XX cars?

[Deleted]

Aug 19, 2017 23:36:32 GMT carltona said:

I've not noticed any wheelchair bays appearing yet. I expect they will be useful for pushchairs and luggage, should the public notice them eventually.

I am sure work on wheelchair bays was not going to start until 2018. The work is being ramped up, so no single train has had all of the intended work carried out yet.  The first few trains done will be heading back at some point to get the rest of the work done.

[Deleted]

There's is currently one on the test track at South Ealing

[Ben]

Having taken a journey on the Bloo today, I'd forgotten just how badly the refurbs have aged. Very claustrophobic.

[carltona]

Aug 23, 2017 3:36:54 GMT Ben said:

Having taken a journey on the Bloo today, I'd forgotten just how badly the refurbs have aged. Very claustrophobic.

I suppose if you don't use the line very often it seems a bit third world down there. In effect the line was largely replaced by the Jubilee and left to it's own with little investment for many years. I'm a regular passenger and have been for decades so it seems normal to me though I notice the difference when I'm on other lines (though frankly the central is not much better).

The 72 stock has done a good job on the whole and is superior to the shoddy 92 stock in my opinion.

[carltona]

Aug 20, 2017 15:32:30 GMT @luacton said:

Aug 19, 2017 23:36:32 GMT carltona said:

I've not noticed any wheelchair bays appearing yet. I expect they will be useful for pushchairs and luggage, should the public notice them eventually.

I am sure work on wheelchair bays was not going to start until 2018. The work is being ramped up, so no single train has had all of the intended work carried out yet.  The first few trains done will be heading back at some point to get the rest of the work done.

I'm still to notice the disabled bays putting in an appearance. The refurbished seat covers seem to be wearing ok whilst some bald patches are showing on S7/8 seats now.

[Deleted]

Feb 25, 2018 16:43:28 GMT carltona said:

Aug 20, 2017 15:32:30 GMT @luacton said:

I am sure work on wheelchair bays was not going to start until 2018. The work is being ramped up, so no single train has had all of the intended work carried out yet.  The first few trains done will be heading back at some point to get the rest of the work done.

I'm still to notice the disabled bays putting in an appearance. The refurbished seat covers seem to be wearing ok whilst some bald patches are showing on S7/8 seats now.

None are done yet. I can ask around for some expected dates.

[goldenarrow]

carltona , From memory I think structural repairs on the 72 fleet were set to continue to run into 2018 and RVAR (Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations) compatibility works including dedicated multi-use bays would start sometime in the summer of 2018.

[Deleted]

structural repairs are to be finished april/may 2019.then rvar works start after that along with a few retro fit mods that were not carried out on the first couple of trains.