Excess information

[Deleted]

Am I the only person to be irritated by the excess information provided on the station displays? Now that we have the "Stand back - train approaching" message, which persists until the train is actually in the station, I think they have really gone too far. Anyone who can read the message would be able to see the train approaching. What I really want to see at that point is where the next trains are going to; it may affect whether or not I catch the train which has just arrived.

Similarly we frequently see one message after another relating to slippery platforms, lifts out of order, forthcoming planned closures - actually I want to see what the displays are best at: the times and destinations of forthcoming trains!

[Deleted]

As someone who needs lifts, that part is handy for me, but for someone who doesn't need lifts it would get annoying and I agree with your other points

[Antje]

I presume that TfL has an obligation to cater for the hard of hearing.

[Chris M]

Sept 6, 2014 20:06:10 GMT @spinba11 said:

As someone who needs lifts, that part is handy for me, but for someone who doesn't need lifts it would get annoying and I agree with your other points

The DLR scroll messages like "no lift service at Gallions Reach (plat 1)" - but unless you are familiar with the station there doesn't appear to be any way to know whether that is the platform you'll arrive at if you travel there. Gallions Reach was my local station for about a year, but even I would have to look it up.

[theblackferret]

I'd have to say, it's preferable to have the 'other' information regarding lifts, overall train service etc. on separate boards or indicators before you actually worry about where the next train's heading. Preferably still on the platform as well.

It wouldn't take much to reprogram the display to say, for example,:

STAND BACK BECKTON TRAIN NOW!

would it? That way, the length and size of the display could remain the same, because you've got rid of APPROACHING and have now got space for the terminating station name instead.

I think health and safety would dictate anyone hard of hearing must have some visual indicator assistance there, but this way would meet those requirements as well.

[jazza]

Sept 6, 2014 16:52:07 GMT @lthrtim said:

Am I the only person to be irritated by the excess information provided on the station displays? Now that we have the "Stand back - train approaching" message, which persists until the train is actually in the station, I think they have really gone too far. Anyone who can read the message would be able to see the train approaching. What I really want to see at that point is where the next trains are going to; it may affect whether or not I catch the train which has just arrived.

Similarly we frequently see one message after another relating to slippery platforms, lifts out of order, forthcoming planned closures - actually I want to see what the displays are best at: the times and destinations of forthcoming trains!

Clearly you are an able bodied passenger who does not require any external assistance to board, see or hear your train approaching. Sadly not all passengers are blessed with the same capabilities, and all the messages displayed are there for the benefit of both less able bodies and "regular" passengers alike.

Not having a go at all here, just saying that there might be a bigger picture.

[Indefatigable]

And for somebody that does not use the tube network that often, like myself, information like that is useful

[Deleted]

The train approaching message is probably also useful for anyone doing SATs - a good cue not only to give that announcement for people who may find it useful and haven't noticed the message - but also a great time to start making an announcement about the destination, etc.

On the other hand, because of how it's triggered, it's often not all that useful. Certainly on the Picc I've noticed it come up at Russell Square and Holborn at least a minute - if not more - before any headlights have made their appearance. Might as well put football scores up there for all the good that does. Oh wait....

[Chris M]

The issue I have with this is not that the message exists, but that it is displayed at the wrong times. "Stand back, train approaching" is only useful when the train is imminently due into the platform (less than 1 minute away) but has not arrived yet. Instead I've seen it shown when a train isn't approaching, for three minutes before a train shows, for the entire duration a train is in the platform, when the train is in or even leaving the platform. Incorrect information can be worse than no information at all.

[theblackferret]

Sept 10, 2014 8:12:44 GMT Chris M said:

The issue I have with this is not that the message exists, but that it is displayed at the wrong times. "Stand back, train approaching" is only useful when the train is imminently due into the platform (less than 1 minute away) but has not arrived yet. Instead I've seen it shown when a train isn't approaching, for three minutes before a train shows, for the entire duration a train is in the platform, when the train is in or even leaving the platform. Incorrect information can be worse than no information at all.

Yes indeed. I wonder if that information is electronically triggered by the train itself, or by the Control Room, once any train's reached a certain point.

If so, then from the little I understand of railway signalling, the following train won't be able to enter that section until said section is cleared, and the section would only clear once the first train has called at and left the platform area.

It may also be that there's an intermediate signal after the 1-minute or 3-minute points which sometimes catches the 'approaching' train and renders the information inaccurate. I don't know, but there must be some station approaches busier than others, DLR or conventional Tube.

Unfortunately, I can't remember what the indicators say on the conventional Tubes when the train's sat at the platform. Not because I'm busy getting on it, it's just not something I'd thought about, I just have a feeling, it's a line of ***********************, but can't be sure.

I have definitely had trains 'approaching' for well over a minute on both our last holidays in London on Piccadilly, H & C and Northern Lines. That is irritating, even if it can be understood from the operating point of view.

[Alight]

Sept 10, 2014 2:12:15 GMT jazza said:

Clearly you are an able bodied passenger who does not require any external assistance to board, see or hear your train approaching. Sadly not all passengers are blessed with the same capabilities, and all the messages displayed are there for the benefit of both less able bodies and "regular" passengers alike.

Not having a go at all here, just saying that there might be a bigger picture.

You're right, there are two sides to the argument and the occasional service update or mentioning that lift is out-of-service can come in useful for many. However I do often wonder whether too much information pollution is a bad thing, be it the cluttered tube map (as Max Roberts among others have commentated on numerous times) or simply the barrage of announcements us customers are subjected to. It just makes people switch off, which can have detrimental impacts should there be a real need for an emergency message.

Why can't people plan their journeys in advance any more? For example, the "this station has step-free access message" is completely irrelevant as surely if you require step-free access you'd have checked up on it in advance rather than spontaneously appreciating this fact on approach to the station you wish to interchange/exit.

How on Earth did we survive in the days before DMIs? I use Barons Court most days and we all seem to survive without the presence of DMIs so why can't DLR customers? In terms of the DLR message that the initial poster in this thread called attention to - "Stand back - train approaching" - I think this is common sense. One should stand behind the yellow line at ALL times, not just when the train is approaching. One audio announcement would come in handy for those who are visually impaired, but the on-screen ones do seem a tad unnecessary, particularly if it's blocking out more crucial messages. Furthermore, as Chris M has mentioned above, a lot of the 'train approaching' announcements seem to be ill-timed. Using the Piccadilly line as an example, Southgate (westbound) gives far too much notice, whereas Finsbury Park (eastbound) will often announce that the train is now approaching when the train is already halfway along the platform!

[Chris M]

In terms of timing the eastbound Central line at Mile End is probably the worst offender I encounter regularly, Liverpool Street and Bank (again eastbound Central) are sometimes nearly as bad. Debden westbound I would consider to be among the better ones.

I twice started to write here possible simple changes, but I have realised that actually what needs to happen is that TfL need to have a complete holistic review of their offline information provision (posters, maps, announcements, DMIs, etc) starting from scratch with establishing basic principles about what information people want, when they want it, where they want it, how they want it and when they want it. The provision should be decided based on human factors to avoid information overload. The access symbols on the tube map are a classic example of making things worse - it presents an incomplete message that hinders what most people actually want without really helping those who need the access information.

Train approaching messages are useful for a very limited set of people - those unable to see or hear the train approaching who can see (and are looking at) and read flashing messages on the DMIs. This message is only useful if actually displayed only when a train is approaching, at all other times it prevents information that is more useful for more people being displayed. At places like Leytonstone and Stratford eastbound it's not uncommon to see people leaning into (and blocking) doorways waiting for the DVA to tell them where the train is going because the DMI is either not visible from where they are or it is displaying something useless (such as "train approaching").

[theblackferret]

Sept 11, 2014 12:26:52 GMT Chris M said:

In terms of timing the eastbound Central line at Mile End is probably the worst offender I encounter regularly, Liverpool Street and Bank (again eastbound Central) are sometimes nearly as bad. Debden westbound I would consider to be among the better ones.

I twice started to write here possible simple changes, but I have realised that actually what needs to happen is that TfL need to have a complete holistic review of their offline information provision (posters, maps, announcements, DMIs, etc) starting from scratch with establishing basic principles about what information people want, when they want it, where they want it, how they want it and when they want it. The provision should be decided based on human factors to avoid information overload. The access symbols on the tube map are a classic example of making things worse - it presents an incomplete message that hinders what most people actually want without really helping those who need the access information.

Train approaching messages are useful for a very limited set of people - those unable to see or hear the train approaching who can see (and are looking at) and read flashing messages on the DMIs. This message is only useful if actually displayed only when a train is approaching, at all other times it prevents information that is more useful for more people being displayed. At places like Leytonstone and Stratford eastbound it's not uncommon to see people leaning into (and blocking) doorways waiting for the DVA to tell them where the train is going because the DMI is either not visible from where they are or it is displaying something useless (such as "train approaching").

I think that nails the problem. The present approach seems to be: we are living in a 24/7 etc society; there's a constant media bombardment associated with that(which presumes everyone actively likes living in it and must be kept up to date with all information available all the time)which our 'customers' must therefore feel worried about when we can't keep them up to speed with our travel information.

And once, as you say, they start thinking about people & human factors, the sooner they will realise that there are plenty of different types of passengers, too, who need different types of information at different times in different places, and that these needs are what they should address, and then realise they actually can satisfy what the vast majority of the different categories want across a wide range of information sites and modes, without the present tendency towards one size fits all.

[Deleted]

The thing about planing ahead and making sure lifts are working is that things can change at a moments notice, I booked a week in London last week for the end of September/start of October and had no way of seeing which lifts will be down for planned work, but last Monday (8th) it was announced that 2 lifts that I would of been using every day will be down until next year so planning ahead doesn't always work.

[Deleted]

Sept 10, 2014 2:12:15 GMT jazza said:

Clearly you are an able bodied passenger who does not require any external assistance to board, see or hear your train approaching. Sadly not all passengers are blessed with the same capabilities, and all the messages displayed are there for the benefit of both less able bodies and "regular" passengers alike.

I might be missing your point, but if someone can read the display, aren't they likely to be able to anticipate the approach of, and see the train when it arrives?

[Chris M]

As I noted above, the message is useful for people where all of the following are true.
1. They can't see the train coming
2. They can't hear the train coming
3. They can see the DMI
4. They are looking at the DMI
5. They are paying attention to the DMI
6. They can read (flashing/scrolling) messages on the DMI
7. They can understand what "Train approaching" means
8. The "train approaching" message is displayed when a train is currently approaching the platform and is less than one minute away from the platform
9. The "train approaching" message is not displayed at any other time.

All of these people will be sighted and without severe mental handicap. Most of them will be able bodied. I suspect that most of them will have no issues with their hearing, but will be listening to headphones with their back to an approaching train.

The main gripe I have with these messages is that (a) 8 and 9 are not always true; and (b) they obscure other information that is useful for a very significantly larger group of people - including those with other disabilities.

[Deleted]

If it is shown at the right time I can help people at the front end of the platform when the platform is crowded.

[Tomcakes]

I firmly believe that erroneous or superflous information is worse than none. It is continually justified by saying that "passengers want information" - yes, passengers do, but they want useful information at an appropriate time. As said upthread, the continual barrage of announcements about trivia serves only to irritate people - and then you see staff complaining about passengers not listening to announcements when they are actually of use!

I have also seen DMIs display erroneous information for months on end without repair, but also without their being switched off - which is surely better? Alternatively a well-designed system ought to have the ability to ignore the reported destination of the train and just display "CHECK FRONT" and the time, to still give an idea of the ETA.

[whistlekiller2000]

Sept 20, 2014 12:44:29 GMT Tomcakes said:

I firmly believe that erroneous or superflous information is worse than none. It is continually justified by saying that "passengers want information" - yes, passengers do, but they want useful information at an appropriate time. As said upthread, the continual barrage of announcements about trivia serves only to irritate people - and then you see staff complaining about passengers not listening to announcements when they are actually of use!

I have also seen DMIs display erroneous information for months on end without repair, but also without their being switched off - which is surely better? Alternatively a well-designed system ought to have the ability to ignore the reported destination of the train and just display "CHECK FRONT" and the time, to still give an idea of the ETA.

If the travelling public weren't assumed to have half (or less) the brainpower they actually possess by some of the dopier planners in transport ivory towers we most probably wouldn't be deluged by the ridiculous number of announcements. You're absolutely correct in what you say. I travel infrequently on the tube nowadays, perhaps two or three times per year but it's getting more and more irritating to the point where I barely notice what's being said, just a monotonous drone in the background. Accordingly, I'm likely to ignore anything important being said.

I give few instructions to my 18 month old grandson as it doesn't take the brain of Britain to work out that a constant flow of discourse is likely to achieve the toddler version of "shut up Grandpop" in response. He doesn't seem to need the nannying so prevalent on our transport systems and listens when I actually have something useful to impart.

It is of course indicative of the fear of litigation felt by organisations nowadays that partly leads them to present this information umpteen times per minute so that in the event of a tragedy they've got their arses covered.

[theblackferret]

I'd like to know why they can't ask themselves the obvious question:

Does anybody, on a need-to-know basis, need to know it?

If not, just keep it schtum until such time as that need arises.

And in the meantime:

ensure there are enough platform staff around for those whose need-to-know suddenly arises.

have fun amongst yourselves well outside the control/ops room with the unwanted information.

That way, we'll all be happy & elf n safety will be duly satisfied!

[Deleted]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but there is a flaw here:
If you're blind, you can't see the train coming, but then you can't see the board either. If you're deaf you can still see it coming. Right?

[superteacher]

There is far too much information. Most of it isn't necessary. As others have said, how did we cope in the days before DMI's, DVA's etc. Probably better, because back then passengers had to take some level of ownership for planning their journey, checking the destination of the train and so on.

[Colin D]

This past Tuesday I was making my way to Heathrow, while changing at Mile End an announcement was made about a service disruption somewhere. I was unable to hear it because at the same time the train was also doing it's thing about "this is a..." and "mind the..." so I finished up not hearing any information from train or platform. Surely it could be possible to override all announcements when the need arises to convey important messages, but I suppose those in the ivory towers think all the messages are important By the way I made it to the airport with no delays, but still have no idea what or where the delay was.

[John Tuthill]

Nov 6, 2014 16:37:31 GMT Colin D said:

This past Tuesday I was making my way to Heathrow, while changing at Mile End an announcement was made about a service disruption somewhere. I was unable to hear it because at the same time the train was also doing it's thing about "this is a..." and "mind the..." so I finished up not hearing any information from train or platform. Surely it could be possible to override all announcements when the need arises to convey important messages, but I suppose those in the ivory towers think all the messages are important By the way I made it to the airport with no delays, but still have no idea what or where the delay was.

Was it Norman Collier?

[class411]

Last Friday there was a twenty minute disruption to the District line around Hammersmith. An Ealing Broadway train departed and then - nothing.

There was not a word about when the next train would arrive but a continuous stream of 'There is a good service on all underground lines'.