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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2014 22:54:26 GMT
As you say, no one has the time to understand everything, so it's about the PR, the oration, personalities (of which the RMT's Crow is the most vocal and visible) and the ability to effectively communicate to your key stakeholders, in this case principally the traveling (and paying) public. That's why Bo-Jo's winning the argument, why Crow doesn't cut the mustard and the workers who Crow is supposed to represent will not get what they want or deserve. Crow's just not a good representative. Rant over. Now back to the transport... These strikes are absolute PR heaven to a Tory government looking for any reason to stomp on a Union before the next round of "cuts". Its the early 80's in microcosm, with Crow as Scargill, Bo-Jo as Maggie, Millband as Kinnock and Cameron? Well. We need a Gordon the Gopher I suppose. He's a nice shiny cover story, but deep down the Tories haven't changed at all. In the end nobody wins, except those in power. You end up with the Tories PR creating an environment where workers rights end up being reduced, and its not only accepted, but applauded by the majority with the Union looking a bit silly on the sidelines. It stops mattering whether the strikers are in the right or not, people just see the PR spin on the chaos and think there must be another way. And that's the thing, with the Tories in power you have to find another way, because they will not let strikers win. You just know, sickening as it is, that there's a Tory Malcolm Tucker sitting poring over every news channel or feed, searching anywhere for an ambulance in London, stuck in traffic, that just couldn't get to where it needed to go. Up against people who'll use that you've no chance. |
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Post by railtechnician on Feb 6, 2014 10:41:10 GMT
As you say, no one has the time to understand everything, so it's about the PR, the oration, personalities (of which the RMT's Crow is the most vocal and visible) and the ability to effectively communicate to your key stakeholders, in this case principally the traveling (and paying) public. That's why Bo-Jo's winning the argument, why Crow doesn't cut the mustard and the workers who Crow is supposed to represent will not get what they want or deserve. Crow's just not a good representative. Rant over. Now back to the transport... These strikes are absolute PR heaven to a Tory government looking for any reason to stomp on a Union before the next round of "cuts". Its the early 80's in microcosm, with Crow as Scargill, Bo-Jo as Maggie, Millband as Kinnock and Cameron? Well. We need a Gordon the Gopher I suppose. He's a nice shiny cover story, but deep down the Tories haven't changed at all. In the end nobody wins, except those in power. You end up with the Tories PR creating an environment where workers rights end up being reduced, and its not only accepted, but applauded by the majority with the Union looking a bit silly on the sidelines. It stops mattering whether the strikers are in the right or not, people just see the PR spin on the chaos and think there must be another way. And that's the thing, with the Tories in power you have to find another way, because they will not let strikers win. You just know, sickening as it is, that there's a Tory Malcolm Tucker sitting poring over every news channel or feed, searching anywhere for an ambulance in London, stuck in traffic, that just couldn't get to where it needed to go. Up against people who'll use that you've no chance. |
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
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Post by mrfs42 on Feb 6, 2014 12:37:09 GMT
These strikes are absolute PR heaven to a Tory government looking for any reason to stomp on a Union before the next round of "cuts". Its the early 80's in microcosm, with Crow as Scargill, Bo-Jo as Maggie, Millband as Kinnock and Cameron? Well. We need a Gordon the Gopher I suppose. He's a nice shiny cover story, but deep down the Tories haven't changed at all. In the end nobody wins, except those in power. You end up with the Tories PR creating an environment where workers rights end up being reduced, and its not only accepted, but applauded by the majority with the Union looking a bit silly on the sidelines. It stops mattering whether the strikers are in the right or not, people just see the PR spin on the chaos and think there must be another way. And that's the thing, with the Tories in power you have to find another way, because they will not let strikers win. You just know, sickening as it is, that there's a Tory Malcolm Tucker sitting poring over every news channel or feed, searching anywhere for an ambulance in London, stuck in traffic, that just couldn't get to where it needed to go. Up against people who'll use that you've no chance. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Feb 6, 2014 13:39:45 GMT
Whilst it doesn't bother me in the slightest what other people's political opinions are and whether or not they appear on here, I do find myself in the unusual position of actually seeing where RT is coming from.  Again, while I don't really care either way, these are the rules that he's correctly alluded to:
(4a) Foul language, extremist, political or religious views, racism, and sexual/gender orientation is not allowed: the forum holds neutral views on all these topics. Foul language, obscene images, sexually related jokes, personal attacks, aggressive posting, etc. are not acceptable here.
(4b) This forum operates a policy whereby if it's not suitable for a 13-year-old or younger to read, it is not suitable for this forum.May I respectfully suggest that in consideration for those members that prefer moderation by the book you either apply rule 4a, as detailed above, with vigour or amend it to add the caveat that political views are allowed provided they are civil and balanced? Anyway, to add further balance and to sail precariously close to breaking the same rule (re: foul language) I'd like to add that the whole lot of them, Crow, Johnson, Tories, Labour and Uncle Tom Cobley are a total bunch of.............  |
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
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Post by mrfs42 on Feb 6, 2014 14:28:19 GMT
I will say that the Forum Staff are watching this thread - your respectful suggestion has been noted.  However, it would be welcomed if people turned more towards the rail part of the discussion and didn't focus on the personalities. |
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Post by Tubeboy on Feb 6, 2014 16:13:33 GMT
I don't have a problem with the term 'special service', it pre warns passengers that there is not a normal service. But to say the Northern line is operating a good service (which is incidentally every 4 minutes) and I had to wait 30 minutes is pure propaganda. As I said in my earlier post, management have been lying from the very start, fobbing off staff concerns as to what actually their plans are. Bits and pieces come each out day, but invariably it's 'we'll get back to you'.
Clearly the underground needs to change, but getting rid of 750 jobs when demand for travel is going through the roof is not a great idea.
As for Boris saying only 3% of tickets are issued by ticket offices, that's still 100,000 every day, based on the 3 million daily journeys. Something he doesn't mention.
I can only speak in what I see at work and when I'm travelling outside work, is that the ticket offices are always busy.
For management to have so much faith in ticket machines, ok 150 new machines are coming, shows how out of touch they are with the sharp end of the 'business'. The ticket machines now are notoriously unreliable. Software glitches, mechanical failures. Coin and note jams are commonplace. 150 new machines won't replace all the current machines. The company clearly wants to go contactless, so when there is a problem with a card, we will only be able to refer the passenger to their bank, which is very poor service. No doubt assaults will go up, that's ok though we will have a new uniform and a refurbed ipad, which in some dodgy areas will make us as staff feel very unwary.
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Post by trt on Feb 6, 2014 18:54:15 GMT
The media and some MPs are presenting this as if Fit For The Future has suddenly appeared out of the blue without consultation and the union response is knee jerk over the top and reactionary. But if you read the Fit For The Future website, TfL are claiming that there is an ongoing consultation and feedback process going on and has been since September last year. It's clear that the feedback and consultation with staff is having zero effect on their plans. So why are they pushing that negotiation and compromise can only be achieved at ACAS? They knew from the off that their plans would result in industrial action. I simply fail to understand why this fight has to be dragged into the boxing ring for a big old public fight unless there is an agenda to turn public opinion against the unions and thus force through knee jerk reactions in Westminster. And boy is Cameron playing that part nicely. Can the public not see how the Tories are jerking them off? I remember Thatcher emotively pushing through the draconian CSA powers using language like IIRC why should council estate jack the lads hop from bed to bed fathering children by a different woman every weekend and expect the tax payer to foot the bill.
Manipulation of the gestalt to achieve socially destructive political aims. Like we've got too good at war to do it anymore, have we become too adept at mass psychology to be allowed a democracy?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 10:07:59 GMT
Like we've got too good at war to do it anymore, have we become too adept at mass psychology to be allowed a democracy? Yes. My opinion of TfL has certainly gone down because of the way they have presented themselves to their customers during this dispute, but perhaps that is like blaming a dog for the behaviour of its master. As to whether this thread should be locked, the Moderators probably realise that if they do lock it, one of us will just start another one. I think the rubric banning political discussion is ultimately unsustainable: better to allow it in one section only and warn people that they will find "robust" views there. Mind you, what do I know? I've been banned from two internet forums - once for saying to another member that I thought his comments about me were defamatory and once for advising a (female) member that if she thought my suggestion that she needed counselling constituted sexual harassment she should report me to the Moderator! I've always had a glass chin... All of us need to remember that this Forum is private property and we should be prepared to accept the consequences of saying things we wouldn't say in someone else's front room. |
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Post by melikepie on Feb 10, 2014 18:43:45 GMT
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Tom
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Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Feb 11, 2014 7:03:04 GMT
The media and some MPs are presenting this as if Fit For The Future has suddenly appeared out of the blue without consultation and the union response is knee jerk over the top and reactionary. But if you read the Fit For The Future website, TfL are claiming that there is an ongoing consultation and feedback process going on and has been since September last year. Yes, there was consultation (of sorts) through 'Every Journey Matters' workshops. However, this wasn't formal consultation with the trade unions which is the accepted normal way of doing things. The results from the EJM workshops are being used to suggest that staff are in favour of the plans, but everything I've seen suggests the outcome of the workshops was an agreement on change but not the nature of the change. |
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Post by trt on Feb 11, 2014 12:13:47 GMT
..., but everything I've seen suggests the outcome of the workshops was an agreement on change but not the nature of the change. Par for the course, I'm afraid. Manipulate themselves into getting a mandate to act and then produce something horrible claiming it's "what the people want". |
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Post by revupminster on Feb 11, 2014 13:10:45 GMT
Prior to the "company plan" there was staff consultation. it involved the Group Manager taking staff aside individually and asking ten questions as to what a passenger wants and you had to put the answers in order. Typically the top answer was more trains, middle was about cleanliness and last was ease of buying a ticket.
The result was obvious as you answered the questions, and I was a Chief Clerk, that more trains was the priority and the ticket office days were numbered. Only the technology stopped them closing years ago. They effectively have in outer London already.
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Post by trt on Feb 12, 2014 21:16:40 GMT
Prior to the "company plan" there was staff consultation. it involved the Group Manager taking staff aside individually and asking ten questions as to what a passenger wants and you had to put the answers in order. Typically the top answer was more trains, middle was about cleanliness and last was ease of buying a ticket. The result was obvious as you answered the questions, and I was a Chief Clerk, that more trains was the priority and the ticket office days were numbered. Only the technology stopped them closing years ago. They effectively have in outer London already. That's not what I would call a consultation. |
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Post by revupminster on Feb 12, 2014 22:24:29 GMT
Prior to the "company plan" there was staff consultation. it involved the Group Manager taking staff aside individually and asking ten questions as to what a passenger wants and you had to put the answers in order. Typically the top answer was more trains, middle was about cleanliness and last was ease of buying a ticket. The result was obvious as you answered the questions, and I was a Chief Clerk, that more trains was the priority and the ticket office days were numbered. Only the technology stopped them closing years ago. They effectively have in outer London already. That's not what I would call a consultation.
It was the only time staff were asked what they thought of the future underground. Before it was all done behind closed doors with the management and union reps. There was plenty of staff reviews and grade changes before and after the company plan.. An example of typical staffing in the ticket office at Elm Park from 1970 -2000 : Booking clerks 2 class 1 & 2 class 2, this changed to 3 class 1, this then changed to 3 class 2 . Company plan 4 Station Assistant multifunctionals;. then 6 Station Supervisor multifunctionals (the 4 station supervisors abolished); then 4 station supervisor multifunctionals and 1 part time station assistant multifunctional mon-fri 5 hours a day. Similar changes happened all over the underground.
The new plans for Elm Park seem to cut out the supervisor multifunctional with a new grade based on the station assistant that is cheaper. |
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Post by melikepie on Feb 13, 2014 1:06:21 GMT
The strike on Tuesday was called off by RMT due to a change in staff practices or something like that. What were the agreements?
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Post by trt on Feb 17, 2014 13:18:50 GMT
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Post by melikepie on Feb 19, 2014 19:49:29 GMT
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Post by melikepie on Apr 17, 2014 20:10:51 GMT
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Post by sawb on Apr 18, 2014 10:48:14 GMT
Very much hoping these are called off at the last minute, otherwise trying to get to Heathrow for a flight is not going to be much fun!
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Post by trt on Apr 18, 2014 15:27:49 GMT
The RMT's release about their reason for calling another set of strikes reveals somewhat of a disappointing response from management regarding their station by station review. It seems that they are still trying to press on with a four-sizes fits all approach and stiff people over the pensions and salaries.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 18, 2014 16:36:57 GMT
Very much hoping these are called off at the last minute, otherwise trying to get to Heathrow for a flight is not going to be much fun! I assume Heathrow Express/Connect will be running. A pity they don't connect with the Overground very well, but Acton Main Line is a short bus ride from Willesden Junction, which opens up a number of possibilities. |
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Post by sawb on Apr 18, 2014 16:42:55 GMT
Very much hoping these are called off at the last minute, otherwise trying to get to Heathrow for a flight is not going to be much fun! I assume Heathrow Express/Connect will be running. A pity they don't connect with the Overground very well, but Acton Main Line is a short bus ride from Willesden Junction, which opens up a number of possibilities. Group of us looking at taxis at the moment. Whilst you are correct to say that Heathrow Express and Connect will both be running, we've got to get from Liverpool Street to Paddington first! If last time is anything to go by, who knows how long we could be waiting to get on an (almost certainly) already overloaded bus...with both normal sized and over sized luggage! Thanks for the tip about Willesden Junction, might be worth exploring as the relevant bus route may be quieter than those in the central area (quieter to the extent we may actually have a fighting chance of boarding the first bus, that is!) |
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Post by Hassaan on Apr 18, 2014 17:23:21 GMT
Very much hoping these are called off at the last minute, otherwise trying to get to Heathrow for a flight is not going to be much fun! I assume Heathrow Express/Connect will be running. A pity they don't connect with the Overground very well, but Acton Main Line is a short bus ride from Willesden Junction, which opens up a number of possibilities. , Heathrow Connect does not stop at Acton Main Line only the half-hourly Paddington-Greenford services stop there which don't run on Sundays either |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 18, 2014 21:10:00 GMT
Whilst you are correct to say that Heathrow Express and Connect will both be running, we've got to get from Liverpool Street to Paddington first! No need to go to Liverpool Street or Paddington: Hackney Downs/ Hackney Central, or Stratford are both possible interchanges between Greater Anglia services and the Overground (depending which line into Liverpool Street you are using). As I said this can get you to close to a Great Western Main Line station although I had overlooked that, as , only the half-hourly Paddington-Greenford services stop at Acton ML so a further change at Ealing Broadway would be necessary. (Neither strike covers a Sunday, so I assume Acton ML will be open on the day you are interested in.) Heathrow Connect is also half-hourly and the journey AML to Heathrow, including the connection, is 41 minutes. There are also direct buses from Acton High Street - round the corner from Acton Central Overground station - to Ealing Broadway, which is served by Heathrow Connect, and would probably be easier) Another possibility is to walk up the road from Liverpool Street to Shoreditch High Street. This has no direct service to Willesden and Acton Central, but does go to Clapham Junction, from where you can take SWT to Feltham and then the 285. Yes, it will take longer than nipping round the Circle Line. Bonne chance. |
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Post by melikepie on May 3, 2014 10:32:23 GMT
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Post by domh245 on May 3, 2014 11:34:11 GMT
But whether or not the strike lasts 3 days sseems to be unknown. Some people are suggesting that by the 3rd day an almost normal service will be operating on all lines because the striking staff might baulk at the idea of losing 3 days pay |
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Post by Tomcakes on May 3, 2014 20:53:47 GMT
I understand that the strikes began/ended at 2100 each day. When the strikes began, services were quickly suspended (due to "staff shortages" or "strike action"). However, when the strikes finished (and presumably people were returning to work) the rest of the days service was still abandoned. Were there insufficient people coming back to work at that time, or was it unclear who would come back to work and safer to just advertise the service being abandoned (anything subsequently provided being a happy bonus).
I did note an intriguing definition of a "good service" on the Northern line (with the next train 20 minutes away) and a "special service" on the Waterloo & City - the special service being none!
An pink-jacketed individual claimed that a 20 minute service on the High Barnet branch was normal for that time of day (mid-afternoon). Upon being asked if I could see the working timetable in which that was shown, they said that there was no such thing as a timetable on the underground.
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North End
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Post by North End on May 3, 2014 22:43:49 GMT
But whether or not the strike lasts 3 days sseems to be unknown. Some people are suggesting that by the 3rd day an almost normal service will be operating on all lines because the striking staff might baulk at the idea of losing 3 days pay This is quite possible, however remember that it's not necessarily the objective of the strike to cause disruption to passengers. Indeed, it could be argued that less disruption caused would actually serve to avoid losing public support. Getting the publicity and disrupting the internal workings of the business are as much of a result as is needed for a strike to be regarded as successful. There does come a point where one has to say that if Mr Brown is evidently incapable of implementing change without upsetting staff on mass, perhaps it's time to get rid of him and bring in someone who can achieve that? |
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Post by melikepie on May 4, 2014 1:02:51 GMT
Errr.... Gordon Brown hasn't been in office for a number of years.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 4, 2014 6:45:11 GMT
There does come a point where one has to say that if Mr Brown is evidently incapable of implementing change without upsetting staff on mass, perhaps it's time to get rid of him and bring in someone who can achieve that? Errr.... Gordon Brown hasn't been in office for a number of years. but, rather, more relevantly, Mike Brown is the managing director of London Underground. |
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