Separate Route Identities

[peterc]

Probably time to add some sort of identifier to the Overground lines - perhaps a letter or number rather than inventing names.

Opening post moved from original thread by superteacher as the potential discussion warrants a separate thread.

[domh245]

To be honest, we've been at the stage of needing identifiers ever since the ELL was added to the NLL and GOBLIN.

[superteacher]

I agree, it's getting silly now.

[crusty54]

They were being considered but suddenly went on the back burner.

[stapler]

Quite agree; bad enough for natives, impossible for visitors.

[Deleted]

Could the same be said for the DLR?

[superteacher]

Dec 22, 2015 21:48:04 GMT @spinba11 said:

Could the same be said for the DLR?

Mod comment: Quite possibly, but let's stick to LO in this thread. Thanks.

[Chris M]

Dec 22, 2015 21:48:04 GMT @spinba11 said:

Could the same be said for the DLR?

yes and no.
The DLR has many routes but it's all one network and it's both much more geographically compact and more integrated so it's harder to go very wrong. The Overground is (depending how you define things) between 4 and 6 or 7 independent networks covering vast areas of London (and beyond in the case of Watford). Problems on the DLR core (Bank/Tower Gateway to Canary Wharf/Canning Town) can affect the whole network. The East London Line (Highbury & Islington and Dalston Junction to Surrey Quays) and the Lea Valley lines (Liverpool Street to Hackney Downs) are the only parts of LO with a core of the same sort, but even then a complete shutdown at Whitechapel will not affect the North/West London Lines, The Goblin, The Watford DC, the Lea Valley Lines or the Romford-Upminster line.
The DLR is also more flexible in its routing - although there are standard routes, any service that is physically possible can be and is run where necessary or desirable.

Edit: I wrote and posted this before I saw the mod's message. As it's contrasting the two I feel it is at least partly on topic so I'll leave it unless asked otherwise.

[superteacher]

Dec 22, 2015 22:08:01 GMT Chris M said:

Dec 22, 2015 21:48:04 GMT @spinba11 said:

Could the same be said for the DLR?

yes and no.
The DLR has many routes but it's all one network and it's both much more geographically compact and more integrated so it's harder to go very wrong. The Overground is (depending how you define things) between 4 and 6 or 7 independent networks covering vast areas of London (and beyond in the case of Watford). Problems on the DLR core (Bank/Tower Gateway to Canary Wharf/Canning Town) can affect the whole network. The East London Line (Highbury & Islington and Dalston Junction to Surrey Quays) and the Lea Valley lines (Liverpool Street to Hackney Downs) are the only parts of LO with a core of the same sort, but even then a complete shutdown at Whitechapel will not affect the North/West London Lines, The Goblin, The Watford DC, the Lea Valley Lines or the Romford-Upminster line.
The DLR is also more flexible in its routing - although there are standard routes, any service that is physically possible can be and is run where necessary or desirable.

Edit: I wrote and posted this before I saw the mod's message. As it's contrasting the two I feel it is at least partly on topic so I'll leave it unless asked otherwise.

It's a valid point you have made Chris. With my mod hat on, I just didn't want the thread getting confused with two separate discussions.

EDIT: in the early days of the DLR, the routes were colour coded.

[theblackferret]

Dec 22, 2015 20:12:38 GMT peterc said:

Probably time to add some sort of identifier to the Overground lines - perhaps a letter or number rather than inventing names.

Opening post moved from original thread by superteacher as the potential discussion warrants a separate thread.

Yes-I'd personally, from looking at other metros, go for numbers, and try and get them embedded into the maps along the routes as well.

[melikepie]

Maybe we could come up with our own names for each line

[Chris M]

The lines already have well-established names:
Stratford to Richmond - North London Line
Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction - West London Line
Euston to Watford - Watford DC Line
Highbury & Islington to New Cross, West Croydon and Crystal Palace - East London Line
Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction - South London Line
Gospel Oak to Barking - Goblin
Liverpool Street to Cheshunt, Chingford and Enfield Town - Lea Valley Lines.
Romford to Upminster - Romford to Upmister Line

If you want route numbers to reflect actual service patterns:
1: Stratford to Richmond
2: Stratford to Clapham Junction
3: Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction
4: Euston to Watford
5: Gospel Oak to Barking
6: Highbury & Islington/Dalston Junction to New Cross
7: Highbury & Islington/Dalston Junction to West Croydon
8: Highbury & Islington/Dalston Junction to Crystal Palace
9: Highbury & Islington/Dalston Junction to Clapham Junction via Surrey Quays
10: Liverpool Street to Enfield Town
11: Liverpool Street to Cheshunt
12: Liverpool Street to Chingford
13: Romford to Upminster

[spsmiler]

There was a time when Euston to Watford DC was known as the Harlequin Line.

I think this came from a competition win, circa early days of Network SouthEast. Anyway, it did not last very long - perhaps because the service was so appalling that the name Harlequin proved to be too accurate for the wrong reasons (a jester / joker).

btw, Wikipedia details the services using letters.

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:London_Overground_map_sb.svg

Simon

[Ben]

It would probably be quicker to, as Chris lists, go down the number route. One imagines something like numbered orange bullets on the front of trains a la New York Subway

[norbitonflyer]

Premier Line (or Wat-Eus?)
Brunel Line
Enfield Line
Chingford Line
Goblin
Emerson Line
not sure of a name for the last one - Regency Line? Brondesbury Line?

Do they need explaining?

[stapler]

Don't think anyone using the Chingford Line (or Enfield, for that matter) would recognise "Lea Valley Line"; and which would be Brunel, the ELL or the WLL?

[snoggle]

Dec 22, 2015 23:27:40 GMT Chris M said:

The lines already have well-established names:
Stratford to Richmond - North London Line
Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction - West London Line
Euston to Watford - Watford DC Line
Highbury & Islington to New Cross, West Croydon and Crystal Palace - East London Line
Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction - South London Line
Gospel Oak to Barking - Goblin
Liverpool Street to Cheshunt, Chingford and Enfield Town - Lea Valley Lines.
Romford to Upminster - Romford to Upmister Line

If you want route numbers to reflect actual service patterns:
1: Stratford to Richmond
2: Stratford to Clapham Junction
3: Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction
4: Euston to Watford
5: Gospel Oak to Barking
6: Highbury & Islington/Dalston Junction to New Cross
7: Highbury & Islington/Dalston Junction to West Croydon
8: Highbury & Islington/Dalston Junction to Crystal Palace
9: Highbury & Islington/Dalston Junction to Clapham Junction via Surrey Quays
10: Liverpool Street to Enfield Town
11: Liverpool Street to Cheshunt
12: Liverpool Street to Chingford
13: Romford to Upminster

And what do you number the Woodgrange Park - Willesden Junction, Barking - South Tottenham short workings? Also the Walthamstow Central - Chingford workings when there are engineering works? The Shadwell - West Croydon / Crystal Palace / Clapham Junction workings during engineering works? If you're going to split out the North London Line do you do the same for scheduled short workings or known engineering works related service patterns? These are all "actual" workings.

While I can sort of understand why people get agitated about the Overground appearing "messy" and not "enthusiast neat and tidy" is there any demonstrable evidence or research that people are getting lost, going the wrong way or simply not travelling because a few lines are depicted in orange on a map? If there is I'd like to read it so I can be convinced. I rarely see people looking lost using any of those services. The UK "tradition" is to display a timed departure with the destination and intermediate stops shown. TfL's signage is generally acknowledged as being clear and pretty easy to follow. People seem to cope well - so well many of the services are overloaded a lot of the time.

[jukes]

We might well end up with line numbers, such is relatively alien to UK line naming tradition. However one point to remember is that the WLL is almost completely integrated into the NLL now from a service point of view and that will increase by 2018 to make them indistinguishable - which is why they are already grouped together as Richmond/Clapham Junction to Stratford. Similarly, lets not confuse the Lea Valley (main) line via Tottenham Hale and the West Anglia (Local) line via Seven Sisters (and to Chingford!). Everyone here in Hackney etc refers to it as the West Anglia!

The best possible solution would be to adopt the already familiar naming convention such as:
North London Line (which would incorporate the WLL)
East London Line (which would incorporate the SLL)
Gospel Oak-Barking Line (which will almost certainly be referred to as GOBLIN)
Watford DC Line
West Anglia Line
Romford-Upminster Line

There might be some political imperative to retain the SLL name but that would be the only exception to the above schema.

A solution needs to be adopted sooner rather than later (which may also mean line colours) as in the next 5-6 years in all probability the SE London/Kent local services and probably the GN Inners will be picked up by LO.

[class411]

Dec 23, 2015 3:51:04 GMT Ben said:

It would probably be quicker to, as Chris lists, go down the number route. One imagines something like numbered orange bullets on the front of trains a la New York Subway

Or maybe like a London Bus.

[hounddog]

Dec 23, 2015 9:30:14 GMT jukes said:

The best possible solution would be to adopt the already familiar naming convention such as:
North London Line (which would incorporate the WLL)
East London Line (which would incorporate the SLL)
Gospel Oak-Barking Line (which will almost certainly be referred to as GOBLIN)
Watford DC Line
West Anglia Line
Romford-Upminster Line

I don't disagree with much of that but who, apart from enthuisiasts, refers to 'the Watford DC line'? What's wrong with Euston-Watford? Or just 'Watford Line'

[John Tuthill]

Dec 23, 2015 10:12:15 GMT class411 said:

Dec 23, 2015 3:51:04 GMT Ben said:

It would probably be quicker to, as Chris lists, go down the number route. One imagines something like numbered orange bullets on the front of trains a la New York Subway

Or maybe like a London Bus.

Or the Southern Railway/Southern Region

[peterc]

"Lea Valley" to me means the one bit that is still with AGA while "West Anglia" covered everything on that side except Stansted Express.

Because of the different stopping patterns I would give the Chingford service a separate identifier to the Enfield / Southbury Loop services.

The Harlequin Line designation was, I asssume, a tie in with Watford's Harlequin Centre which has since been renamed "intu".

More line colours would leave us with some rather subtle distinctions of shade, numbers or letters alongside the Overground orange, road map style, would be easier.

[norbitonflyer]

Dec 23, 2015 9:28:05 GMT snoggle said:

While I can sort of understand why people get agitated about the Overground appearing "messy" and not "enthusiast neat and tidy" is there any demonstrable evidence or research that people are getting lost, going the wrong way or simply not travelling because a few lines are depicted in orange on a map?

There is a problem - particularly on the "rainbow" boards, where it is impossible to determine whether the "part suspended" is going to affect you or not. If I'm at Clapham Junction, the entire Emerson Park line could be abducted by aliens without affecting me at all - and of course vice versa.

If you don't think it matters that all the different Overground routes are shown in the same colour, why do we show the Underground in eleven different colours? (although for a brief period in the 1940s all the SSL network was shown in green).

Harlequin - cannot have been named after the shopping centre unless you can reverse causality. the line was named in 1988 (from HARLEsden and QUEENs Park) as part of Network South East's adoption of line identities (deja vu all over again.....) whilst the shopping centre opened in stages between 1990 and 1992. The reason for the shopping centre's name is not recorded, but the proximity to the "Harlequin Line"'s station at Watford High Street is plausible.
districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/9725
www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/nostalgia/memories/11881998.BR_launches_Operation_Sparkle/

[theblackferret]

Dec 23, 2015 8:08:15 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Premier Line (or Wat-Eus?)
Brunel Line
Enfield Line
Chingford Line
Goblin
Emerson Line
not sure of a name for the last one - Regency Line? Brondesbury Line?

Do they need explaining?

As long as your Premier Line doesn't expand out to Leicester.................

[norbitonflyer]

Dec 23, 2015 8:18:03 GMT stapler said:

which would be Brunel, the ELL or the WLL?

Who built the Thames Tunnel?

The WLL is part of the Stratford- Richmond/Clapham Junction route. I struggle to find a name for that - "North London" seems odd for a route with two termini south of the Thames, and has potential for confusion with the Morden-Edgware line. It passes Hampstead, but so do man other lines. Two places reasonably near the middle of the route and not ambiguously served by any other are Barnsbury and Brondesbury, but neither is particularly significant. In the end my best suggestion was Regency Line, as a nod to the Regents Canal. It shadows the canal's route -, albeit largely at a distance although they do briefly get in sight of each other in Camden - and of course the E&WID&BJR was built for a very similar purpose to the Regent Canal - to connect the London to Birmingham main line (cf the Grand Union canal) with the Docks.

Interestingly, Regency Line was proposed as a name for the H&C - as a nod to it passing Nash Terrace and Regents Park.
Another proposal was Premier Line, recognising that the core of the H&C was London's first underground railway. You will have noted that I proposed that name for the ex-LNWR Wat-Eus route - "the Premier Line" having been the LNWR's own advertising slogan.

[phoenixcronin]

Dec 23, 2015 3:51:04 GMT Ben said:

It would probably be quicker to, as Chris lists, go down the number route. One imagines something like numbered orange bullets on the front of trains a la New York Subway

They could put the orange bullets where the "5 Car Train" stickers are now.

But this would be a problem as well as some trains are used on more than one route e.g. 378 2xx can be used on WLL, NLL, ELL, SLL and the Watford DC

[snoggle]

Dec 23, 2015 11:13:21 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Dec 23, 2015 9:28:05 GMT snoggle said:

While I can sort of understand why people get agitated about the Overground appearing "messy" and not "enthusiast neat and tidy" is there any demonstrable evidence or research that people are getting lost, going the wrong way or simply not travelling because a few lines are depicted in orange on a map?

There is a problem - particularly on the "rainbow" boards, where it is impossible to determine whether the "part suspended" is going to affect you or not. If I'm at Clapham Junction, the entire Emerson Park line could be abducted by aliens without affecting me at all - and of course vice versa.

If you don't think it matters that all the different Overground routes are shown in the same colour, why do we show the Underground in eleven different colours? (although for a brief period in the 1940s all the SSL network was shown in green).

Let's do the first one - that is a matter for TfL and how they set up their systems, display things on rainbow boards etc. They seem to be a bit better about it these days but I agree there have been times when the entire network is shown as disrupted when only a tiny part may be affected. Clumsy handling of real time info and twitter does not make the case for line names / numbers / fluffy emoticons / whatever on its own.

I didn't say it didn't matter. I asked if there was any evidence of demonstrable confusion and trouble for people who manage to use the respective lines everyday. The wider national rail network isn't depicted officially by colours or names. Yes we have TOC names and some have copied rainbow boards but the concept is not universally applied throughout the networks. Train services are depicted as they have long been done as I said earlier.

I assume the use of colour for the tube coupled with names and geographic wayfinding and use of destination names has been deemed to be reasonably satisfactory for an intensively used rail network. Of course the Tube Map has now been deemed "iconic" which means it's almost inviolable when it comes its core concepts as to how things are presented. Obviously TfL change it and adjust it but they've done nothing radical with it because there would be a guaranteed social media "outrage" within 50 seconds of a "new" map being published. Recall what happened when the Thames was removed? Didn't Boris get embroiled in the "faux outrage" that followed?

Although I manage OK with the tube map the use of colour is no guarantee of no confusion for those who are colour blind. I cope OK but other coloured metro / bus / subway maps can be exceedingly difficult to use - especially if the network is very dense and overlaps a lot (eg Tokyo).

I guess I am just a tad weary about never ending threads about network maps, line identifiers etc on various enthusiast forums as no conclusion is ever reached. There are as many answers as there are people commenting. I'll just go and find a mountain top to wail from.

[trumperscrossing]

Dec 23, 2015 11:25:24 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Dec 23, 2015 8:18:03 GMT stapler said:

which would be Brunel, the ELL or the WLL?

Who built the Thames Tunnel?

The WLL is part of the Stratford- Richmond/Clapham Junction route. I struggle to find a name for that - "North London" seems odd for a route with two termini south of the Thames, and has potential for confusion with the Morden-Edgware line. It passes Hampstead, but so do man other lines. Two places reasonably near the middle of the route and not ambiguously served by any other are Barnsbury and Brondesbury, but neither is particularly significant. In the end my best suggestion was Regency Line, as a nod to the Regents Canal. It shadows the canal's route -, albeit largely at a distance although they do briefly get in sight of each other in Camden - and of course the E&WID&BJR was built for a very similar purpose to the Regent Canal - to connect the London to Birmingham main line (cf the Grand Union canal) with the Docks.

Interestingly, Regency Line was proposed as a name for the H&C - as a nod to it passing Nash Terrace and Regents Park.
Another proposal was Premier Line, recognising that the core of the H&C was London's first underground railway. You will have noted that I proposed that name for the ex-LNWR Wat-Eus route - "the Premier Line" having been the LNWR's own advertising slogan.

The NorthLondon Line links suburbs North of the Thames which lack other transport links, this is less of an issue south of the river as which has its own hub at Clapham Junction, so that makes it a pretty good name. But, more importantly, it has always been called the North London Line or the North London railway if you go back to the 1850's, its passengers call it that, so why one earth change it?

[Deleted]

Dec 22, 2015 23:27:40 GMT Chris M said:

If you want route numbers to reflect actual service patterns:
1: Stratford to Richmond
2: Stratford to Clapham Junction
3: Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction
4: Euston to Watford
5: Gospel Oak to Barking
6: Highbury & Islington/Dalston Junction to New Cross
7: Highbury & Islington/Dalston Junction to West Croydon
8: Highbury & Islington/Dalston Junction to Crystal Palace
9: Highbury & Islington/Dalston Junction to Clapham Junction via Surrey Quays
10: Liverpool Street to Enfield Town
11: Liverpool Street to Cheshunt
12: Liverpool Street to Chingford
13: Romford to Upminster

You could start by restoring B1 for Watford - Euston, and B4 for Stratford - Richmond.

[Chris M]

Dec 23, 2015 9:28:05 GMT snoggle said:

And what do you number the Woodgrange Park - Willesden Junction, Barking - South Tottenham short workings? Also the Walthamstow Central - Chingford workings when there are engineering works? The Shadwell - West Croydon / Crystal Palace / Clapham Junction workings during engineering works? If you're going to split out the North London Line do you do the same for scheduled short workings or known engineering works related service patterns? These are all "actual" workings.

While I can sort of understand why people get agitated about the Overground appearing "messy" and not "enthusiast neat and tidy" is there any demonstrable evidence or research that people are getting lost, going the wrong way or simply not travelling because a few lines are depicted in orange on a map? If there is I'd like to read it so I can be convinced. I rarely see people looking lost using any of those services. The UK "tradition" is to display a timed departure with the destination and intermediate stops shown. TfL's signage is generally acknowledged as being clear and pretty easy to follow. People seem to cope well - so well many of the services are overloaded a lot of the time.

Short workings would not require a separate route number in the same way that short workings on the London Underground lines do not merit individual names.
Once or twice a day services, like H&C trains that extend to Upminster, do not require their own identity either.
Occasional services, could be marketed as "S1", "S2", etc. with a note that they are special services that do not run every day - people cope with the District Line to Olympia doing this.

An alternative to just numbers would be letter-number pairs, e.g.
N1 - Stratford-Richmond
N2 - Stratford-Clapham Junction
E1 - Highbury & Islington-New Cross
E2 - Highbury & Islington-West Croydon
R1 - Romford-Upminster
G1 - Gospel Oak-Barking
W1 - Euston-Watford
L1 - Liverpool Street-Enfield Town
L2 - Liverpool Street-Cheshunt
etc.

The current presentation does cause confusion - look at the north end of the Victoria Line for example - 5 different Overground interchanges in 6 stations. I've had to put people right on the Jubilee line intending to change at Canada Water for the Overground to get to Homerton for example.
The current situation is OK (but not good) for people who are savvy with the transport system and understand the London network, but it's not good for everyone else.