Step Free Access

[will]

                                  Map showing TFL incorrectly showing step free access, but more importantly why are stations such as Tottenham Court Road and Canary Wharf that are new builds planned only to have access from the platform to street only?

[edwin]

I could be wrong, but whoever designed that map may have gotten the step-free signs mixed up, because surely, the trains will be level with the platform at the brand new underground stations, and not level at the old NR stations..

Also, Heathrow Express trains are perfectly level with the platforms at the Heathrow stations. Presumably the Class 345s will be at the same level.

Edit: Just checked the Tube Map, and the step free symbols from platform to train are blue and the ones from the platform to street are white! So whoever made this map has reversed it, and this is the reason for the error.

[will]

Feb 25, 2016 0:06:19 GMT edwin said:

I could be wrong, but whoever designed that map may have gotten the step-free signs mixed up, because surely, the trains will be level with the platform at the brand new underground stations, and not level at the old NR stations..

Also, Heathrow Express trains are perfectly level with the platforms at the Heathrow stations. Presumably the Class 345s will be at the same level.

That's the same conclusion I came to at first though it baffled me  Think I need sleep. Also isn't it quite poor that such major stations such as Stratford and Ealing Broadway wont have total step free access as well as the other 26 stations on a £15 billion pound railway.

[edwin]

Feb 25, 2016 0:13:06 GMT will said:

Feb 25, 2016 0:06:19 GMT edwin said:

I could be wrong, but whoever designed that map may have gotten the step-free signs mixed up, because surely, the trains will be level with the platform at the brand new underground stations, and not level at the old NR stations..

Also, Heathrow Express trains are perfectly level with the platforms at the Heathrow stations. Presumably the Class 345s will be at the same level.

That's the same conclusion I came to at first though it baffled me  Think I need sleep. Also isn't it quite poor that such major stations such as Stratford and Ealing Broadway wont have total step free access as well as the other 26 stations on a £15 billion pound railway.

Looks like you're not the only one..

www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/tfl-criticised-for-getting-crossrail-elizabeth-line-map-wrong-a3188126.html

[brigham]

I don't think this mistake will have inconvenienced anyone, though.

[Chris M]

Inconvenienced, almost certainly not. Confused, very much so.

[crusty54]

Feb 25, 2016 0:13:06 GMT will said:

Feb 25, 2016 0:06:19 GMT edwin said:

I could be wrong, but whoever designed that map may have gotten the step-free signs mixed up, because surely, the trains will be level with the platform at the brand new underground stations, and not level at the old NR stations..

Also, Heathrow Express trains are perfectly level with the platforms at the Heathrow stations. Presumably the Class 345s will be at the same level.

That's the same conclusion I came to at first though it baffled me  Think I need sleep. Also isn't it quite poor that such major stations such as Stratford and Ealing Broadway wont have total step free access as well as the other 26 stations on a £15 billion pound railway.

the level interchange at Stratford for the Central line means you have to climb a serious step into the main line trains.

Not possible to drop the track because of the subways.

[Chris M]

sloping platforms are possible theoretically, but do come with their own set of problems.

[Deleted]

Will the platforms that crossrail will use be used by other stock?

[spsmiler]

Feb 26, 2016 12:09:48 GMT @spinba11 said:

Will the platforms that crossrail will use be used by other stock?

I thought that at Stratford C2C Class 357's will use the platforms, plus when one line is closed (at weekends) all other trains (321, 360, Intercity, etc) will use the same platforms.

In the tunnels however I think only the ceossrail trains, as only these will be compatible with the computerised moving block CBTC signalling system.


Simon

[Deleted]

I meant at Stratford, that's explains why it won't be level.

[crusty54]

Feb 26, 2016 8:47:41 GMT Chris M said:

sloping platforms are possible theoretically, but do come with their own set of problems.

bearing in mind you will need a flat surface beside the train, the stairs positions and the narrow platforms on 3/5 and 6/8 at Stratford this isn't possible.

[rincew1nd]

Feb 26, 2016 7:42:13 GMT crusty54 said:

Not possible to drop the track because of the subways.

Could a Harrington Hump not be employed?

[crusty54]

Feb 27, 2016 11:07:19 GMT rincew1nd said:

Feb 26, 2016 7:42:13 GMT crusty54 said:

Not possible to drop the track because of the subways.

Could a Harrington Hump not be employed?

Only at the country end and could cause trips and falls

[rincew1nd]

I'm not familiar with the platform in question, but the point of a Harrington Hump is that it doesn't increase the risk of slips, trips and falls, it decreases them!

[crusty54]

Stratford has island platforms that allow interchange between small Central line trains and large main line trains.

The Tube platforms are almost level access but you almost need climbing gear to board the train on the other platform.

Humps are fine where they stretch between the train and the platform wall.

[will]

Feb 27, 2016 20:55:37 GMT crusty54 said:

Stratford has island platforms that allow interchange between small Central line trains and large main line trains.

The Tube platforms are almost level access but you almost need climbing gear to board the train on the other platform.

Humps are fine where they stretch between the train and the platform wall.

if it isn't possible to lower the track of TFL Rail/Crossrail/Elizabeth Line due to the subways world there eventually be a possibility of raising the central line track level and then increasing the height of the platform to suit both lines?

[Chris M]

On the westbound, yes I think in theory although you'd also need to raise the level of platform 3b (adjacent to the upper level of the station concourse)

On the eastbound, there is only a fence between the LU trackbed and the trackbed of the westbound TfL Rail platform. In theory I suppose you could build a low retaining wall to separate the two (as happens when lines vertically diverge for flying junctions), but I don't think you could do this with the fence in situ. IIRC the fence is used for all the LU services (air main, signalling cables, etc) so removing and replacing it will be no small task. Also, if you remove the fence you will need a possession on both lines. I don't think that that level of disruption to nearly all east and north east London is justified for adding step-free access to one platform.

Stratford station basically needs completely rebuilding, but I think we've missed the one opportunity we had to do that this generation :/

[melikepie]

Just to clarify with everyone, only the symbols in the key need to be reversed, not the whole map. All step-free stations on the DLR from train to street show the dark blue with white wheelchair, for example.

[crusty54]

Feb 27, 2016 23:57:46 GMT will said:

Feb 27, 2016 20:55:37 GMT crusty54 said:

Stratford has island platforms that allow interchange between small Central line trains and large main line trains.

The Tube platforms are almost level access but you almost need climbing gear to board the train on the other platform.

Humps are fine where they stretch between the train and the platform wall.

if it isn't possible to lower the track of TFL Rail/Crossrail/Elizabeth Line due to the subways world there eventually be a possibility of raising the central line track level and then increasing the height of the platform to suit both lines?

this shows why you can't raise the Central line tracks without a complete rebuild and this would mean closing the station for the work

www.flickr.com/photos/dgeezer/4959554830/in/photolist-8yg1S3-hY2kmf-4uebSQ-gaYfwU-gaYSsk-c6jruU-8ycUq8-e3oK7v-cERdMC-cERepu-8Pbn74-4PJKPE-niMY6V-5ZeYk-ciCHxj-zZMKe-82c1h-7yy54-8yfXfs-cZAkys-AotG8-AotGF-AotFS-ntHWQE-saaeSG-7ffrMo-8nyVvV-bbNpnF-cERdzN-cERekN-fLwwvo-fLwwwd-oXWHov-ytZVor-2b1ER-frVhX7-cBpW9-8daqjT-cERdVL-cERdSo-cERe1y-cEReu7-cERdG1-eNE53r-34JKaL-4zxYCT-bbNo9P-bbNoM6-bixZxz-bbNoBV

[norbitonflyer]

As the w/b Central Line has platforms both sides, you could close one, raise it, then raise the track, and then raise the other platform. Might reduce the closure to a weekend for actually raising the track, as you could do most of the platform work with trains calling at the other.

[crusty54]

Feb 28, 2016 17:08:28 GMT norbitonflyer said:

As the w/b Central Line has platforms both sides, you could close one, raise it, then raise the track, and then raise the other platform. Might reduce the closure to a weekend for actually raising the track, as you could do most of the platform work with trains calling at the other.

Seems simple except that it's the westbound that has twin access including the new from the main ticket hall/Jubilee line/DLR from Canary Wharf. You can't change this platform height over a single weekend or probably a full year. You also seem to have ignored that the platforms need drainage.

The photo above clearly shows the problems.

A weekend to change the stairs and ramps, not to mention lost access to the accommodation and people hitting their heads on suspended signs?

[Deleted]

I'm getting a bit lost, why does the w/b track need to be raised?

[Chris M]

The TfL Rail trains do not have step-free access at Stratford. As the TfL Rail tracks cannot be lowered due to the subways, the only way to achieve step-free access is to raise the platforms.
If you raise the platforms then you also need to raise the Central Line platforms as they are on the opposite side of the same islands, which are too narrow to permit only raising one side.
The only way to then retain (or gain, I can't remember) step-free access to the Central Line trains is to raise the trackbed of that line.

Feb 28, 2016 17:45:58 GMT crusty54 said:

Seems simple except that it's the westbound that has twin access including the new from the main ticket hall/Jubilee line/DLR from Canary Wharf. You can't change this platform height over a single weekend or probably a full year. You also seem to have ignored that the platforms need drainage.

The photo above clearly shows the problems.

A weekend to change the stairs and ramps, not to mention lost access to the accommodation and people hitting their heads on suspended signs?

Actually raising the south side westbound platform (3A) should be relatively easy. The only access to it are shallow ramps down from the "mezzanine" level in the main building. With a raised platform level, these ramps would just be shorter than they are presently. This work could indeed be done while access is maintained from platform 3, but it would take more than a weekend and would involve some weekend or longer closures when the edge of the platform was being done.

You would then need to raise the central line tracks - which would almost certainly involve making the gradients either side steeper (I don't know if this would present any issues with the train's ability to traverse them?), so that when this work was complete you could immediately reopen the Central line with access via platform 3A only. The work to raise the trackbed would though take significiantly more than a weekend (a single digit number of months is my uneducated guess). The Central line would need to be suspended through Stratford while this work took place. With a bit of preparation, I expect a solution could be found to maintain a service from east of Leyton but definitely Leytonstone and points east would be fully serveable assuming that a sufficient number of trains can be fully maintained at Hainault depot.

The city side is more problematic however. A full service could not be provided east of Liverpool Street, although some trains would reverse at Bethnal Green. Without installing a new crossover in the tunnel (expensive, no idea how practical), no Central line trains would be able to serve Mile End for the duration. Again this assumes that sufficient trains can be maintained at Ruislip Depot (I've heard that described as "cavernous" though so I don't think space will be an issue for this).

You will need to arrange *lots* of replacement buses between the two sections of the Central line.

Phase 2 is simple on the face of it - you just need to to raise the platform 3/5 island. Given everything here it will probably be simplest to demolish the existing buildings and canopies and start again. I expect that barriers could be installed on both platform faces to allow at least some work to take place while TfL Rail and Central Line trains run through. The latter could not call though, so that's road transport between Maryland and Whitechapel at least, assuming Maryland can handle the crowds.
Once you've demolished the existing buildings you can start raising the platforms. The stairways can just have a couple more steps added to them - no big deal. Adjusting the lift(s?) will be a bigger job of course. When it comes to the platform edges, I'd start with the platform 3 (Central Line) side for reasons of simplicity to the public. They already know how the replacement transport works for a central line closure and it shouldn't take too long. Relatively speaking. You can do the TfL Rail side concurrent with the start of phase 3 as you have to close the tracks to do that anyway.

Next comes Phase 3.
This is raising the trackbed in platform 6 (eastbound Central line). I've discussed earlier what a big job this is, and so to save time I'll just quote myself:

Feb 28, 2016 1:01:40 GMT Chris M said:

On the eastbound, there is only a fence between the LU trackbed and the trackbed of the westbound TfL Rail platform. In theory I suppose you could build a low retaining wall to separate the two (as happens when lines vertically diverge for flying junctions), but I don't think you could do this with the fence in situ. IIRC the fence is used for all the LU services (air main, signalling cables, etc) so removing and replacing it will be no small task. Also, if you remove the fence you will need a possession on both lines.

Obviously this will take a similar amount of time to raising the trackbed in platforms 3/3A - maybe a bit longer. Several months in other words. Once you've done it however you can reopen the westbound TfL rail fully and reopen the Central line to through trains - especially if you've done all the works to raise that edge of the platform 6/8 island in preparation. While you have the lines closed though you might as well take the opportunity to extend the bridge from DLR platforms 4a/4b to improve interchange with the eastbound and relieve some pressure on the subways.

Phase 4 is the last one. This is just demolishing the buildings on platforms 6/8, extending the lifts and stairs, and raising the platform like you did earlier with platforms 3/5. Then you can close the eastbound TfL rail though service for a while to complete the platform edge works there.

Finally, and probably around 18 months to 2 years after you started, you now have step-free access to both TfL Rail and the Central Line. Having cost the economy of east London many millions in the process. Was it worth it?

[Deleted]

From memory the only Central line platform which is level with the train is 3A, if you raise 3 and 5 3 will be more level with the train as long as it's not raised too much same for 8 and 6.

[Chris M]

The problem is that the step between the train and platform on 3 and 5 are different, but the new platform has to be the same height on both sides.

[crusty54]

Feb 29, 2016 1:00:50 GMT Chris M said:

The problem is that the step between the train and platform on 3 and 5 are different, but the new platform has to be the same height on both sides.

but if you raise the platform on 3A to a point where it would be high enough for level access to the TfL Rail trains you would hit your head entering the platform.

How would you solve the problem of the stairs on the interchange platforms?

[Chris M]

I thought I covered this - stairs are an easy problem to solve as you just add more of them. Say there are currently 25 steps, after raising the platform there will be 27 or 28. The big issue is the lifts.

As for platform 3A I don't think the platform height will be raised that much that anything fixed will be impacted - there is vastly more headroom available at Stratford than there is at Mile End for example. You might have to raise a few hanging signs, but that is trivial to do compared to the major works happening and can be done currently with them.

[tjw]

Mar 1, 2016 21:40:26 GMT Chris M said:

I thought I covered this - stairs are an easy problem to solve as you just add more of them. Say there are currently 25 steps, after raising the platform there will be 27 or 28.

While it may be easy to add a couple more steps, but there is a rule about lengths of flights. Would these extra steps be counted as new work, and this rule would apply.  So new stairs and new lifts, might be cheaper to have a fleet of taxis at the ready.

Anyway what is the projected date for the LU network to be step free?  let alone NetworkRail infrastructure... 

[stapler]

If the Goblin analogy is chosen, you'd shut the whole of the GEML and Central Line for 3 months to do the job.
One for the too difficult, too expensive file, I suspect