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Post by Chris W on Dec 23, 2007 11:31:22 GMT
Let me start by making a distinction here between an enthusiast and a trainspotter. THE ENTHUSIAST - an enthusiast cares about railways, is generally aware of the guidelines or rules and does their up-most to follow them. THE TRAINSPOTTER - a trainspotter is ignorant of the rules in relation to railways, simply doesn't care or thinks that they apply to other people. Having attended the finale of the East London Line, it would appear that there are too many trainspotters who do not understand or comprehend that there are rules and regulations in relation to photography. For general photography guidelines please read districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=selfhelp&action=display&thread=1168432254 however for the benefit of the trainspotter fraternity may the Admins please spell this out in simple language - FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY IS NOT ACCEPTABLEWHY ISN'T FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY ALLOWED?Using a flash in darkened or confined conditions can result in the temporary blinding of train operators (either directly or by reflection off other surfaces) which is obviously dangerous when trains are entering stations. Whilst some T/O's consider arcing from the 3rd rail to be far brighter & more disabling to their vision, flash photography is ultimately unnecessary and its utterly disrespectful to LU, its staff and other passengers. CAMERA EQUIPMENTWith the advent of digital camera technology, photography is now easier and good results are even possible in low light conditions without the need to use a camera's flash facility. If you have a good quality camera you will be able to turn off the flash and digital SLRs allow larger aperture lenses to be fitted and used, increasing shutter speed (reducing blur) and completely negating any need for using the flash in the first place - if your camera does not allow you to turn off the flash this is NOT an appropriate camera for use in the underground environment. STATION STAFFThere are occasions when station staff ARE over officious and jobsworth, however it may not be without good reason - perhaps they have encountered trainspotters and are fed up with their ignorance. DERISION OF ENTHUSIASTSThe bottom line is that trainspotters are spoiling the enjoyment of railways for the genuine enthusiast, contributing in no small part to the derision that enthusiasts are treated with by the general public and railway industry. Why should LU or any other body lay on an event, if they expect hoards of trainspotters to turn up flashing their cameras at anything that moves and cause disruption? The Admins believe that members here are familiar with the rules on photography, however we are also aware that the forum is read/browsed more widely. A MESSAGE TO ALL TRAINSPOTTERSIf you use your camera's flash facility when taking railway photography (whether London Underground or mainline) PLEASE STOP IT!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 11:43:19 GMT
A MESSAGE TO ALL TRAINSPOTTERSIf you use a your camera's flash facility when taking railway photography (whether London Underground or mainline) PLEASE STOP IT! You couldnt have said that any better Chris. Another point that must be made and here is a good place to do so, is that i have seen on more than one occasion where someone has seen fit for themselves to wonder off down the platform ramps and onto the track just because they have a HI VI jacket on. There is a lot more to gaining track certifcation than simply wearing a Hi Vi jacket. The track is a very dangerous environment and there are a lot of hidden dangers.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Dec 23, 2007 13:23:37 GMT
I will confess to using flash for the last train at New Cross Gate, but not for the rest of the day.
Taking Chris' and Met ISO's posts on board, I noticed two members of this forum (and you know who you are) riding in the driving cabs of trains during yesterday without authority.
Please refrain from doing so (and likewise asking for trips) as you are not authorised to be there and present a potential distraction to the train operator concerned, who is at risk of losing their job if you are caught.
This was especially relevant last night when the East London Line was crawling with both management and British Transport Police.
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 23, 2007 13:46:25 GMT
Although is it not up to the train operator in question to remove them from the cab?
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Post by Tom on Dec 23, 2007 13:53:30 GMT
Yes - though I should perhaps clarify by stating that it was the leading cab and they were there with the driver's blessing. However, it is inappropriate for the Train Operator to be put into the embarassing situation of having to refuse such a request.
Bottom line - your're not meant to be there, so don't bother asking!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 18:23:39 GMT
WHY ISN'T FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY ALLOWED?Using a flash in darkened or confined conditions can result in the temporary blinding of train operators (either directly or by reflection off other surfaces) which is obviously dangerous when trains are entering stations. Whilst some T/O's consider arcing from the 3rd rail to be far brighter & more disabling to their vision, flash photography is ultimately unnecessary and its utterly disrespectful to LU, its staff and other passengers. If I might add to this: It is physically painful to come out of a near pitch-black tunnel, have one's eyes adjust slowly to the light of the platform and then have a bright flash going off in one's face. If anyone doubts this then I suggest getting up early on a winter morning, positioning themselves so they are staring at the lighbulb and then suddenly snapping it on. I would concur that arcing is brighter but (and this is a crucial point) no T/Op would be looking directly at arcing because it's underneath their bloomin' train! And lastly, it can be incredibly distracting to suddenly have a light flash on the platform. Consider how dangerous it can be to distract someone operating a 200-odd ton vehicle next to a platform packed with customers and then think again about doing anything distracting. </soapbox>
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Post by trc666 on Dec 23, 2007 19:00:22 GMT
If it's possible, turn off the AF lamp on your camera as this can be mistaken for a red signal, there was an incident like this not long ago.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 20:07:49 GMT
I will confess to using flash for the last train at New Cross Gate, but not for the rest of the day. Taking Chris' and Met ISO's posts on board, I noticed two members of this forum (and you know who you are) riding in the driving cabs of trains during yesterday without authority. Please refrain from doing so (and likewise asking for trips) as you are not authorised to be there and present a potential distraction to the train operator concerned, who is at risk of losing their job if you are caught. This was especially relevant last night when the East London Line was crawling with both management and British Transport Police. Hmm... I wonder who they were...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 20:16:40 GMT
I will confess to using flash for the last train at New Cross Gate, but not for the rest of the day. Taking Chris' and Met ISO's posts on board, I noticed two members of this forum (and you know who you are) riding in the driving cabs of trains during yesterday without authority. Please refrain from doing so (and likewise asking for trips) as you are not authorised to be there and present a potential distraction to the train operator concerned, who is at risk of losing their job if you are caught. This was especially relevant last night when the East London Line was crawling with both management and British Transport Police. as much as i dont agree with this, isnt it up to the train op to refuse......i know i certainly would!
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Post by Colin on Dec 23, 2007 20:27:52 GMT
It is ultimately up to the train op as to who they will or will not allow in the cab - however; whilst train ops do have the ultimate power on access, there is also a rule book to follow which states quite clearly who is authorised to request access - the train op can only base his decision on access with regard to those people listed in the rule book. In plain English, transport enthusiasts, train spotters, general members of the public, etc are not on the list of those authorised to request access to a train cab...............I suspect you get the idea ...................
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 20:49:32 GMT
I was at leicester square about 7 years ago and a group of tourists who did'nt know were on the northbound northern line platform, as the train came in (was a 1959 stock) someone took a picture with a flash which stunned the driver and he slightly overun the platform also shocked somebody on the platform who could have fallen on to the track, people under-estimate the power of flash on the tube.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 21:00:01 GMT
If it isn't Flash photos going off at a 'pipe' station, it is kids 'trackside' behind a bridge shining those LED penlights in your face...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 23:32:05 GMT
Not guilty. My only ever attempt at tube photography was at Wimbledon (after a lovely walk from Richmond!) and I ran out of batteries before I got a single shot!
It's not just transpotters but people in this country have a rather high rate of ignoring rules and decency, and that p*sses me off a lot.
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Post by District Dave on Dec 24, 2007 13:28:57 GMT
On the question of cab rides.....
No T/op has the authority to allow unauthorised persons in his/her cab - there is no discretion and this. If such persons have arranged a cab trip they would have to be accompanied by a suitably authorised person - normally a DMT.
I/Ops may also give authorised trips, and they do not need a 'chaperone'.
Don't ask for an 'ad hoc' ride - you could loose the driver his job.
IF I OR ANY OF THE ADMIN TEAM BECOME AWARE THAT ANY MEMBER OF THIS FORUM HAS BEEN RIDING IN THIS WAY, WITHOUT FORMAL PERMISSION, THEY WILL BE REMOVED FROM THIS FORUM.
SIMILARLY IF WE BECOME AWARE THAT ANY DRIVERS CONCERNED ARE MEMBERS WE WILL ALSO REMOVE THEM.
WE CANNOT BE SEEN TO CONDONE EITHER PARTIES TO SUCH ACTIONS.
On the original thread though, I confirm and endorse all of Chris' comments.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2007 17:16:08 GMT
I can't say I'm over keen on the general tone of this thread.
My view is that there is quite enough unacceptable "bad press" given to train enthusiasts / spotters ... and this, put simply is because we are soft targets.
Transgressions from the rules, by us, are, frankly, petty, and pretty inconsequential in the great scheme of things.
There are far more worthy targets, in the form of graffitti vandals and substantial numbers of fare dodgers .... (is anyone going to and from a football match expected to pay ....it seems not).
Neither train spotters nor enthusiasts (and I'd venture to suggest the former write down car numbers whilst the latter have a more general interest, rather than as otherwise defined) are in the general habbit of depriving LUL of revenue or vandalising trains or causing costly damage.
(indeed many kept touching in and out, thus paying more fares, to avoid unresolved journies. I know a few ELL line diagrams disappeared from a few cars, a bit naughty that ...but they will have been removed upon return to Neasden anyway)
I'm curious to know if the subtantial policing presence was to protect our members camera equiptment from late night south londoners ? or to keep an eye on dangerous out of control train enthusiasts ...there were almost as many police as enthusiasts !! If only a single police officer would travel on my train when a permiership game tips out !!!
If the staff at Whitechapel had not locked Platform 6 out of use, no one would need to have gone beyond the barrier since the platforms are staggered. A bit of common sence should have prevailed. Whilst i never saw anyone go beyond the barrier on the last day, the platform exists there and is in good repair.
We've done the flash issue before, I'm a driver - frequent arcing from passing trains is far brighter and not remotely dangerous to my driving ! The rule is the rule ...but i don't see them nearly so keen to stop "double gaters" or people putting feet on seats ...or spitting on platforms....or holding open doors .... need i go on ??
A bit of common sence by all concerned and no problems need be encountered.
I agree the rules are the rules and this forum seeks to highlight for the benefit of members what the rules are. But I don't think we serve a purpose by engaging in undue critisism of each other ...when there was much more petty beaurocrosy to be seen. I would think a united front in support of enthusiasts/spotters would be a better message from the forum.
I would add that there were plenty of good staff about and most of the drivers were notable in their smiles and friendly demeanour. Some of the announcements were also humerous. many good staff about outnumbering a few who think it's their job to play job's worth.
(These comments are made with the caveat that I am LUL staff as well as an enthusiast)
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Post by william on Dec 24, 2007 17:20:39 GMT
Don't ask for an 'ad hoc' ride - you could loose the driver his job. As a refusal can offend, and in this day and age it is pure stupidity to ask.
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Post by Chris W on Dec 24, 2007 17:31:04 GMT
Aspect et al
When anyone behaves as I witnessed on the 16 & 22 December on the ELL they are NOT a soft target. I am ashamed to be associated with such idiocy just because I share the same interest in railways. Its time for genuine enthusiasts to stand up, be counted and say enough is enough.
According to Joe Public anyone who is interested in trains is a trainspotter and consequently is a low achiever having sub-normal intelligence, is devoid of character (besides a mind numbing boring one) and lives alone/with parents being unable to form normal adult relationships. Whilst the term ‘trainspotter’ does literally mean a person who spots trains/records the numbers, perhaps its time to put this much derided term to a better use – to describe those who are ignorant of the rules in relation to railways, simply don’t care or think that they apply to other people.
Regards
ChrisW
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2007 17:54:19 GMT
I agree with the comments above. As I have said elsewhere on the forum, it is very embarrassing to be telling someone the right thing to do, while the people who should know better, do the opposite. I was so embarrassed and appalled by the actions of some so called "enthusiasts/spotters" on the 16th, it was part of the reason I only did half the tour. As for cab rides, I would be lying if I said I hadn't had one or two, but from what I've seen, most "enthusiasts" don't personally know the drivers (as I did), and are just asking randomly, putting drivers in an awkward position to say no. On a final note, I would like to condemn the silly sods out there who have had cab rides and taken photos of the drivers, which are now on the internet for the world to see. As the admins/mods of this forum have said time & time again, "other" people do read the forums out there, and you are given these people a free pass to ruin these drivers lives... Regards, Dave
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2007 19:09:29 GMT
When anyone behaves as I witnessed on the 16 & 22 December on the ELL they are NOT a soft target. I am ashamed to be associated with such idiocy just because I share the same interest in railways. I don't entriely disagree with the principle of what you are trying to say / do. It's just I feel within a rather small community, we need to support each other and keep everything within perspective. I feel the whole lot needs to be looked at within the perspective of "the bigger picture". There are many transgretions of rules taking place daily. I am a part of the sharp end, so I see them. Railway enthusiasts ARE a soft target, because by ticking them off "you" are less likely to recieve abuse, a smack, a knife ..or worse ! Nothing is done to anyone who breaches most of the rules and railway enthusiasts will not be slow to appreciate, nothing will be done to them either (except, apparantly, be thrown off this board). I never saw a single act on either the 38 day or the last ELL day that was dangerous or warrented comment*, when looked at in the perspective of what i see daily. Except for the notion "they should know better" ... they do know better ...they know more serious transgretions are not acted upon ! I don't mean to be unduely flippant, I would not want any enthusiast to put themselves in undue danger nor put staff or the public in undue danger. According to Joe Public anyone who is interested in trains is a trainspotter and consequently is a low achiever having sub-normal intelligence, is devoid of character (besides a mind numbing boring one) and lives alone/with parents being unable to form normal adult relationships. Whilst one or more of those attributes do apply to many enthusiasts, including some of us here. I entirely support any notion of countering the bullying type of representations that a human should not be able to engage in their own harmless interests without attracting the derrision of others. A few individuals do need a bit of protection from their antics for their own safety. However, nothing on these days compares to the antics of the general public daily especially late at night or hoards of football supporters, but surprisingly they seem less likely to attract dozens of police and mouthy station staff ! SOFT TARGET !Like i say, I agree with you in principle, but it needs to be seen very much in the perspective in which it sits ! I repeat again, most staff I encountered were all smiles and credit warrented to the vast majority on duty. *= one exception was someone kneeling right on the edge of the platform at New Cross Gate with a camera where the driver stopped short until they moved, in fairness they seemed genuinely oblivious of what was going on until rebuked by those assembled.
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Post by Chris W on Dec 24, 2007 19:32:02 GMT
Indeed as a small community we do need to look out and support one another.... but not at the same time further tarnishing the image of anyone who has in any way shape or form an interest in railways.
Enthusiasts have enough abuse and derision thrown at them without also having to deal with accusations of illegal or needless irresponsible activity (trespass etc.). In fact allowing or ignoring such behaviour IMO just adds credence to the prejudice meted out...
In your opinion the actions may not have been dangerous..... but they weren't in any way justifiable regardless of the actions of station staff... if one person trespasses/use flash another will follow (cause they can get away with it) and so on and so forth.
What we witnessed may not be any more dangerous that many naive passengers already do, however as enthusiasts we are meant to know more and abide by the rules whether we agree with them or not, setting an example if you will.
Whether or not anyone agrees with the terms I used (enthusiast/trainspotter) is utterly irrelevant, its the actions that I am appalled at. I am simply using a derided term to represent those who demonstrate low intelligence, therefore conforming to the stereotypical trainspotter - and hence the suitability of the term.
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Post by District Dave on Dec 24, 2007 20:08:11 GMT
Aspect - to be honest I'm more than a little surprised in the position you've taken in this matter!
I repeat (in case it's unnoticed) that I am 100% in agreement with Chris on this.
I really struggle to accept your views here. I have been an enthusiast in a number of fields other than LU for many years and the type of behaviours Chris is highlighting would lead to far worse consequences (and that is an important consideration) in the event of an accident etc.
Your apparent justification of 'the public transgress everyday so that makes it OK' is frankly unjustifiable and unacceptable to me; ENTHUSIASTS should know better; yes we in our work have to put up with all sorts - on an enthusiast event or some such we should the enthsiasts should be above hose behaviours.
I'm afraid the last coment you made in your last post prefixed by the '*' really kills all your other stuff dead.
I am of the view that the comments made by my colleague admins hold as'policy' of ths place in my opinion.
Sorry if you disagree.
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Post by Phil on Dec 24, 2007 20:21:04 GMT
.........and the word "oblivious" REALLY frightens me when applied to an 'enthusiast', who by his own admission (likes to think he) understands the rules of the Railway.
Yes, we in transport tolerate, and sometimes encourage, the enthusiast, but always on the assumption they know what's safe because they are aware of the inherent dangers. When that breaks down, IMHO there really is nowhere to go, and I think that's what Chris is hinting at.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2007 22:09:17 GMT
i sometimes really hate it when enthusiasts spoil it for others, in the Mainline Railtours, they stock themselves up with booze and then they hang out of the window cursing the normal people or flailing "saluting" at them
i have seen people standing on trackside so they could photograph their steam loco
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Dec 24, 2007 22:09:36 GMT
I am trying to recall when I first started taking photos of Underground trains, although it must pre-date 1980, and thus possibly before I became editor of UndergrounD magazine. I am certain that at that time the rules about no flash photography applied, and for good reason. I have been on several railtours starting from around 1979 and photos of those tours and the hoardes of enthusiasts who milled around the platforms with and without cameras are there to see on the internet. To my knowledge, no-one was criticised by management on the train or on the various stations for using inappropriate behaviour or using unacceptable photography methods.
However, I am pretty certain that the first recollection I have of reputed idiocy dates back to around 1971 when CLAN LINE I think it was started at Basingstoke and ran to Salisbury, etc. in the very early days of return to steam by preserved locos, following the Bulmer's Cider initial runs. I am certain that the magazines at the time reported on enthusiasts ignoring the third rail presence and trying to take photos off the end of the platform. For years afterwards steam was banned from the SR because of concerns over enthusiasts being a danger to themselves and others. This when we had an office in Marylebone Station of the Transport Trust and we were trying to get steam out of that station again.
I am sorry to say that there are 'enthusiasts' of all types of transport who refuse to abide by rules established for safety and other logical reasons. This has regrettably been evident now for many years. Now, with the opening up of various transport-related forums it appears that certain individuals have become well-known for their behaviour, and are thus well-known in their own right. There has been for over 30 years a minor core of people who refuse to abide by rules that they think for one reason or another do not apply to them. They will not listen to overtures that they risk damaging reputations of the vast majority of well-behaved genuine enthusiasts, and also endangering the possibilty of facilities for enthusiasts. I have seen a heck of a lot of sheer stupidity in my time around the railways, and I suppose the most crass was when certain individuals started wearing hi-viz vests and pretending that they were railway staff.
In the aviation sphere resentment has been caused because the police routinely stop and search people with cameras etc. around airports, but that's in the name of security and in many cases the individuals were stopped having been found near fencing, on perimeter roads, on 'mounds' for spotting etc.
The BTP are now being to a certain extent pilloried because of similar tactics on NR stations as regards enthusiasts. Responding with politeness and understanding and co-operation seems to ameliorate the situation and perhaps make things easier when the next person has to be stopped. Is it not therefore too much to ask for all genuine enthusiasts to:
a. Not ask for a cab ride, thus risking well-paid jobs b. Not use inappropriate photographic methods, for safety's sake at the very least c. Not to walk off the platform end, or go into non-passenger areas d. Not to be rude to staff e. Consider others please?
I must also add that t/ops have good jobs, and they do a good job. They deserve their well-earned salaries. It is grossly offensive to me as a family man trying to earn a supporting wage to hear that there are still people out there who would recklessly allow a t/op to lose their job, at the very least, by putting undue pressure on. There are ways and means of riding up front officially, and I went down that road years ago by asking with justification for an official pass. I personally, and perhaps I may be melodramatic, cannot see how anyone has the gall to ask and then compound it by taking photos which can then be studied by all and sundry. I have mentioned before about officials perusing online TfL forums. Dave has succinctly reminded the members of that.
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Post by Chris M on Dec 24, 2007 22:34:32 GMT
Regarding the interpretation of Aspect's comments. I think that rather than saying that the transgressions observed shouldn't be punished, his intended meaning was more along the lines of 'How can you justify severe punishment for minor infractions when more serious breaches go completely unpunished?'
Regarding people going beyond barriers at stations. My understanding is that the purpose of these barriers is keep joe public away from the electrified rails - something that is obviously a Good Thing for all concerned. However, the barriers at some locations do not coincide with the end of the platform - a good example is the north end of platform 5 at Whitechapel, where the platform extends a significant distance after the barrier and it appears to be in a safe condition (and were it not I would expect to see a warning notice to staff who are authorised to pass the barrier). Contrast this with the east end of the outer rail platform at Chigwell where the barrier is at least 10 feet forward of the stopping mark and monitors (the exit is at the west end). At the former location taking a photograph of the end of the train (with or without flash) from a safe section of platform that is out of the way of normal passengers is against the rules, while at the latter it is permissible. Unnecessary restrictions serve only to dilute the effectiveness of those that are necessary (I refer you to my previous rants about road speed limit policy for example).
Surely it would have been safer to allow the railfans* to photograph from platform 6 at Whitechapel rather than to cram them all onto platform 5 where they are in the way of other customers and staff who need to move along the platform (at times it was difficult to move). There were enough staff around that one or two could have been on the platform to be in a position to act quickly should anyone pose a safety hazard to themselves or others.
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 25, 2007 11:27:54 GMT
My interpretation is as ChrisM's - yes there are 'enthusiasts' who are prats, but equally people get away with worse - and yes I think at least some of this is because it's easier to deal with someone using flash at a train than it is to deal with a trainful of drunken louts.
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Post by Chris W on Dec 25, 2007 12:48:21 GMT
You are indeed right that people do worse (graffiti, vandalism etc.), but the shameful thing from the enthusiast perspective is that we should know better that to ignore the rules/regulations for selfish benefit (taking that better photo etc.). They additionally insult every other enthusiast by contributing to and justifying the derision that enthusiasts endure because of their hobby. IMO there cannot or should not be any excuse for an enthusiast to behave irresponsibly. Others in society may get away with endangering railways (staff and passengers), but that NEVER justifies enthusiasts doing the same! THE END!
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