|
|
Post by patrickb on Aug 20, 2016 15:52:07 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Aug 20, 2016 20:54:21 GMT
cab failure? did I miss something?
I did not know about these driverless trails, however they will not have been the first here in London. My thoughts turn to the FACT train on the Central Line which was trialled in the 1970's - until the money ran out.
Whilst I see a degree of even greater automation as being inevitable I would not welcome unstaffed trains. Not even on the W&C. The DLR points to how London could achieve this...
Simon
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 7:41:05 GMT
Over in Singapore, half of the metro lines don't have a driver or any staff on board and it doesn't feel unsafe. The only staff seen are at the ticket barriers.
While I admit that the tunnels were built to a larger size, thus make it easier to detrain, the RMT should come over to Singapore and realise that the 'safety' issues are not an issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Aug 21, 2016 11:33:46 GMT
Over in Singapore, half of the metro lines don't have a driver or any staff on board and it doesn't feel unsafe. The only staff seen are at the ticket barriers. While I admit that the tunnels were built to a larger size, thus make it easier to detrain, the RMT should come over to Singapore and realise that the 'safety' issues are not an issue. The RMT are still trying to keep guards on national rail, so the idea of them looking at driverless systems probably won't be on their agenda any time soon! |
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Aug 21, 2016 17:15:50 GMT
Fully unstaffed / driverless urban metro trains have been running for decades.
Lille in France was one of the first cities - its VAL system opened in the early 1980's.
I can also recall travelling on the Vancouver Canada Skytrain which was also a brand new system and opened in the mid 1980's. Unlike the French VAL in Lille, this Canadian system does not have platform screen doors, it uses other systems to detect intrusion on to the tracks.
It did not worry me that these systems were unstaffed. The same comment applies to airport people movers which we have here in the UK, although I did once see someone almost become trapped between the train and platform doors - this was on the former Birmingham Maglev system.
I think that in part the concern about fully unstaffed trains here in London is that (as a general theme) the small profile tube tunnels were not built for emergency evacuation by unaccompanied passengers and whilst the subsurface network has larger tunnels these too do not have emergency facilities. Oh and imagine passengers on their own decision deciding to evacuate whilst trains are still travelling on the adjacent track!!!
Having someone in a control room barking messages on the PA (which I've experienced in a few cities) is no substitute to panicking passengers for the calming influence of a real member of staff on the train with everyone. Even if the emergency instructions being given to passengers are the same.
Simon
|
|
|
|
Post by rsdworker on Aug 21, 2016 19:09:49 GMT
the automatic trains in Copehagen has full automatic trains like DLR but does have platform doors and gates (former aboveground was open without gates) - staff are sometimes seen around stations but the system is 100% safe - even if you get leg in platform edge door when its closing - its reopens again before closing again - simllar to one at Birmingham skylink - the doors reopen if anything is in way
so why not have simllar to DLR trains where staff could press close doors after he checks platforms - the close doors button activates train control to go to next station and automatic door opening
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 19:54:50 GMT
the automatic trains in Copehagen has full automatic trains like DLR but does have platform doors and gates (former aboveground was open without gates) - staff are sometimes seen around stations but the system is 100% safe - even if you get leg in platform edge door when its closing - its reopens again before closing again - simllar to one at Birmingham skylink - the doors reopen if anything is in way so why not have simllar to DLR trains where staff could press close doors after he checks platforms - the close doors button activates train control to go to next station and automatic door opening Well because it's actually quite unclear to me how to the DLR still works really. It would be very difficult for a person standing there closing the doors to function on rush hour tube. For one thing, the trains are exceptionally crowded - how would they do their job? How would they get from one side of the carriage to the other, how would they get at the door controls? You'd need a guard's bar like you had in the old days, but then that takes away passenger space, abnegating the advantages of removing the cab. And how would you see the whole platform. Even on an arrow straight platform I think it would be difficult, as they get very crowded, your two eyes would be as good as useless from the carriage. On a curvy platform like Bank it'd be literally impossible. So you'd need some CCTV. All this, but unlike on the ATO lines you've thrown away your cab with its MCBs, its cut out switches, its diagnostics computer, its secluded environment for doing the job properly, liaising with line control, its facilities for driving the train in exceptional circumstances in peace and safety, without having to turf customers off their seats, its emergency stop button so you don't have to worry about that. You've also probably not trained someone to be able to do all the defect handling a proper train operator can do. It's the worst of both worlds. So if you're already making a special little enclosed space for the train captain with CCTV monitors and door controls, why not put them in a desk, add an emergency stop button, a TBC (just in case), MCBs, cut-out switches and other facilities for defect handling, a door to keep out the riff-raff and bob's your uncle, ATO. But if you don't want that, I'm not sure what real use Jimbo is gonna be on a rush hour Central line train. Off peak things might be a little different, they can do revenue inspection duties, maybe provide a point of contact, perhaps add to the sense of passenger security like your guards on the big railway, but if you're LUL and you're trying to save money, and you don't really like having staff anyway, and you've spent all this money on DTO-capable trains, why would you spend £36,000 (approximate DLR PSA's yearly salary on 2014, I'm sorry, I don't have up-to-date figures off-hand) on a uniformed passenger? |
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Aug 22, 2016 11:01:10 GMT
I can't see the benefit to passengers of having an unmanned train. When something goes wrong, there will be no-one with the skills or authority to take charge.
Would it be beneficial to the London Marathon to have no trained first-aiders in attendance?
|
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Aug 22, 2016 12:15:28 GMT
We all marvelled at the automatic trains running Woodford-Hainault in the 60s. We are half a century on from that. Are we not?
|
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Aug 22, 2016 12:58:37 GMT
The technology is marvellous, no doubt about that. The way to apply it needs to be examined. It could be a great boon, if used wisely.
|
|
|
|
Post by trainopd78 on Aug 22, 2016 13:45:35 GMT
The test the RMT are talking about never took place. Thales tried to slip the testing in between lots of other tests. My colleague spotted what was about to happen and refused to perform the test so it never took place. It was a very underhanded way that the test was put into the programme hoping we wouldn't notice and has been sent up the food chain. The test involved moving the train in ATO without any keys in or anyone monitoring the train out of the platform. |
|
|
|
Post by will on Aug 22, 2016 14:41:04 GMT
Does that mean the ATO software or software on the computers at the control centre could in theory obviously it would have to be activated move a train with out a cab being activated ? It also showes how bad Thales is as a company that it's likely that come of the Jubilee line closures may have been extended or more added for this type of nonsense that wasn't what TFL wanted in anyway and what a shame it is that they are the only company that can now resignal the SSR.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 19:18:39 GMT
Hong Kong's Airport People Mover is an automated four car MTR train railway, with no drivers on board, but with full height Platform Screen Doors, and has been operating smoothly since 1998, some Eighteen years on a daily basis. The trains are even branded MTR. It can be made to work, even in an environment where unfamiliar passengers are the norm, as in the case of Hong Kong Airport.
|
|
|
|
Post by patrickb on Aug 22, 2016 20:39:11 GMT
The test the RMT are talking about never took place. Thales tried to slip the testing in between lots of other tests. My colleague spotted what was about to happen and refused to perform the test so it never took place. It was a very underhanded way that the test was put into the programme hoping we wouldn't notice and has been sent up the food chain. The test involved moving the train in ATO without any keys in or anyone monitoring the train out of the platform. Thank you for the explanation and relieved that Thales (which I've always been wary of) was not able to perform this underhanded move. It's disappointing to see that 'downgrading of roles' is being encouraged. It greatly induces cuts to jobs, redundancies and decline of new employment opportunities. The technology is great, yes. However, I fear that many are overlooking the problem of how the 21st Century is idealizing technology that would supersede Labour before we have a better grasp on nation-wide self-sustainability. London Underground performs at an exceptional level with ATO. Yet there are some who would like see things taken further for the sake of reducing cost (primarily at the company's interest). Such experiments can easily be on the cards again with Night Tube. Hopefully eyes will be overlooking certain operations when the Northern and Jubilee Lines operate 24hrs on Weekends in the near future... |
|
|
|
Post by trt on Aug 23, 2016 3:31:18 GMT
Southern's ceiling panel failure shows how and why full automation and destaffing is wrong, everywhere. No first aiders! And I call rollocks to your 100% safe; nothing is 100% safe.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2017 0:03:26 GMT
Hong Kong's Airport People Mover is an automated four car MTR train railway, with no drivers on board, but with full height Platform Screen Doors, and has been operating smoothly since 1998, some Eighteen years on a daily basis. The trains are even branded MTR. It can be made to work, even in an environment where unfamiliar passengers are the norm, as in the case of Hong Kong Airport. Newer examples of working driverless systems are the Disneyland Resort Line (single line, two stations with a passing loop in the middle) and the newest South Island Line (5 stations, quite DLR-like except they use full-length 23m carriages and 1.5kV overhead power). Passengers really just see them as normal trains. All of the systems had platform screen doors or platform gates though. |
|
