|
|
Post by snoggle on Sept 14, 2016 21:09:00 GMT
The first meeting of the new TfL Board takes place next week. In amongst several papers about the Board and associated panels and Standing Orders is a paper setting out TfL's position on taking on more suburban rail services in London. content.tfl.gov.uk/board-20160922-item07-suburban-rail-services.pdfBefore anyone gets overly excited I've not read the paper in detail but there is no major step forward here because a joint Mayoral / DfT sign off is required. Clearly though TfL are keen to get things moving on taking over South Eastern and an announcement on this is necessary within weeks and three key actions are recommended. We shall see if City Hall and the new SoS at the DfT can actually work together or whether the recent rumpus over Southern and TfL "helping out" has soured things beyond repair. |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Oct 14, 2016 12:13:08 GMT
|
|
castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
Posts: 1,316
|
Post by castlebar on Oct 14, 2016 15:15:11 GMT
Interesting. New routings are always worth considering. 25 years ago we were told re-opening the WLL for passenger service couldn't be justified. Not many years before that, we were told the Farringdon route could not be re-opened and even if it were to be, there would be insufficient demand to justify it.
There are just TWO M-F outward trains to Shepperton from Waterloo via RICHMOND. They leave Waterloo at 17:43 and 18;13, just after the one going via the usual (slower and longer way around) Kingston routing has gone. So these are the only two outward trains all day scheduled to use "the Fulwell Chord", and because of that, the Strawberry Hill - Fulwell line is often missing from London rail maps. I took the 17:43 on Tuesday, and as they say in Mumbai, it was "super jam-packed crush load" at the front of the train. I think about 100 "customers" must have disembarked at Hampton alone. There must be other situations in the London area, INCLUDING L.U. surface lines, where more imaginative use could be made of existing infrastructure. Any ideas?
|
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 14, 2016 21:40:37 GMT
There are just TWO M-F outward trains to Shepperton from Waterloo via RICHMOND. They leave Waterloo at 17:43 and 18;13, Actually there is a third at 1843, which I use occasionally to Strawberry Hill. The Shepperton branch itself is relatively quiet (the lack of Oyster facilities at four of its six stations probably depresses demand), and it would be difficult on its own, to justify a 4tph service, but they remove a significant number of passengers from the heavily-loaded services on the Kingston line. (official figures show Kingston to be five times as busy as Hampton, and Norbiton nearly three times as busy: Hampton itself is almost as busy as the other five stations on the Shepperton branch put together) |
|
castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
Posts: 1,316
|
Post by castlebar on Oct 14, 2016 21:54:51 GMT
OK, but the principle that I am trying to establish is that of "looking outside the box" for possibly better use of existing resources
|
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Oct 14, 2016 23:27:33 GMT
OK, but the principle that I am trying to establish is that of "looking outside the box" for possibly better use of existing resources You won't get any principles for a fair while in SWT land. Too many other bits of jigsaw to fit together before you can get to the nuances of using bits of curve. Crossrail 2 needs to be finalised in terms of route and stations, the retendering of SWT has to be concluded. A decision on whether to split SWT into two has to follow for devolution to take effect and then you need confirmation that enhanced capacity into Waterloo has all been delivered. Then you need a decision to build and fund CR2 and only then can the decisions be taken on if you can deliver better / different services into Waterloo. And then if you want to do that and you need more investment to deliver it then you need money and planning for that. Yes your favourite curve may well exist but it doesn't mean you can run a regular service into Waterloo in a sustainable and reliable way. That's my take on it - I really think DfT are concentrating on trying to get more people crushed into every train path in the peak (hence the reqs in the ITT that will force new high density stock to be procured) and to ensure the extra capacity at Waterloo is fully utilised. I doubt there will be much excitement beyond that until CR2 is delivered (if it happens). |
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Oct 15, 2016 7:13:43 GMT
Talking of Waterloo, what's the current prognosis for the old Eurostar platforms, coming up for a decade of disuse?
|
|
Dom K
Global Moderator
The future is bright
Posts: 1,831 
|
Post by Dom K on Oct 15, 2016 7:29:06 GMT
Talking of Waterloo, what's the current prognosis for the old Eurostar platforms, coming up for a decade of disuse? Funny you should ask that... |
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 15, 2016 7:52:23 GMT
You won't get any principles for a fair while in SWT land. Stagecoach's management unprincipled? You heard it here first! They have sat on their hands for twenty years and are only now showing any interest in new services - and then only in Somerset - and improvements in capacity now they realise that they might be about to lose the goose that lays the golden eggs. But on recent showings, they are incapable of running the existing service, let alone running any more. This week alone we have had a day when two out of the three trains scheduled to run between 8 and 8:30 were cancelled, and their favourite pointless game of running a Loop service from Waterloo to Waterloo, omitting all stations on the Loop itself. Not to mention information screens which display the same train on two different platforms whilst it is standing at a third, and/or herald a train as on time, 40 minutes after it was due. |
|
|
|
Post by crusty54 on Oct 15, 2016 9:59:25 GMT
You won't get any principles for a fair while in SWT land. Stagecoach's management unprincipled? You heard it here first! They have sat on their hands for twenty years and are only now showing any interest in new services - and then only in Somerset - and improvements in capacity now they realise that they might be about to lose the goose that lays the golden eggs. But on recent showings, they are incapable of running the existing service, let alone running any more. This week alone we have had a day when two out of the three trains scheduled to run between 8 and 8:30 were cancelled, and their favourite pointless game of running a Loop service from Waterloo to Waterloo, omitting all stations on the Loop itself. Not to mention information screens which display the same train on two different platforms whilst it is standing at a third, and/or herald a train as on time, 40 minutes after it was due. Many of your points appear to be down to Network Rail. They certainly control the screens. |
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 15, 2016 11:55:41 GMT
Network Rail. They certainly control the screens. Maybe so, but the staff on the ground never seen interested in doing anything about getting their little quirks fixed. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 12:36:58 GMT
Network Rail. They certainly control the screens. Maybe so, but the staff on the ground never seen interested in doing anything about getting their little quirks fixed. Are they not fed by the TID interposed by the signallers in Wimbledon ASC? (I.e. Network Rail as Crusty says). Not a lot SWT can do about that and Wimbledon can be pretty intense I'm sure. There'll be a lot goes into that. I don't know if there's ACI (Automatic Code Insertion) at Wimbledon. |
|
|
|
Post by crusty54 on Oct 15, 2016 12:58:53 GMT
Network Rail. They certainly control the screens. Maybe so, but the staff on the ground never seen interested in doing anything about getting their little quirks fixed. Because they don't have the opportunity to intervene. You should direct your observations to Network Rail who are also responsible for many of the track issues. |
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 15, 2016 17:37:05 GMT
Maybe so, but the staff on the ground never seen interested in doing anything about getting their little quirks fixed. Because they don't have the opportunity to intervene. You should direct your observations to Network Rail . And how do you do that, other than through the TOC? Anyway, Network Rail's on line live train departures feed is usually correct. |
|
|
|
Post by crusty54 on Oct 15, 2016 19:17:40 GMT
Because they don't have the opportunity to intervene. You should direct your observations to Network Rail . And how do you do that, other than through the TOC? Anyway, Network Rail's on line live train departures feed is usually correct. as you asked www.networkrail.co.uk/contact/station-complaint/ |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Oct 15, 2016 22:20:11 GMT
You won't get any principles for a fair while in SWT land. Stagecoach's management unprincipled? You heard it here first! They have sat on their hands for twenty years and are only now showing any interest in new services - and then only in Somerset - and improvements in capacity now they realise that they might be about to lose the goose that lays the golden eggs. But on recent showings, they are incapable of running the existing service, let alone running any more. This week alone we have had a day when two out of the three trains scheduled to run between 8 and 8:30 were cancelled, and their favourite pointless game of running a Loop service from Waterloo to Waterloo, omitting all stations on the Loop itself. Not to mention information screens which display the same train on two different platforms whilst it is standing at a third, and/or herald a train as on time, 40 minutes after it was due. You know that I was not referring to Stagecoach or their management. As for the rest we've heard it all before. We know you hate your rail commute and the operator. I don't think you need to keep reminding us to be honest. If Stagecoach lose the franchise then I look forward to hearing your unalloyed praise for First / MTR regardless of how they actually perform because at least they won't be Stagecoach.  |
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 16, 2016 8:44:38 GMT
OK, but the principle that I am trying to establish is that of "looking outside the box" You won't get any principles for a fair while in SWT land. You know that I was not referring to Stagecoach or their management. In truth, I didn't understand your original comment at all. I look forward to hearing your unalloyed praise for First / MTR Don't hold your breath! By all accounts one Scottish-owned bus operator is much like another! |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Oct 16, 2016 12:25:32 GMT
In truth, I didn't understand your original comment at all. Well that's me told, isn't it? |
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on May 31, 2020 9:31:19 GMT
Among the paperwork from the TfL Board meeting on Tuesday in "Section 3 Emergency Budget assumptions, Capital programme: Surface" one item included among many others is "Rail Devolution (DfT request)" Go to Page 53 of 70 content.tfl.gov.uk/board-20200602-agenda-and-papers-supplentary.pdfThis suggests that the planned transfer of National Rail "Metro" services to TfL first suggested around 2012 (or thereabouts) then scrapped in 2016 is not only back on but that the DfT are actually pushing it. £0.5bn of the bailout is a loan that has to be repaid, obviously TfL are going to struggle financially in the immediate future but if they took control of "Metro" services this would give them a lot of extra revenue. Interesting... |
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,776
|
Post by Chris M on May 31, 2020 10:38:17 GMT
This suggests that the planned transfer of National Rail "Metro" services to TfL first suggested around 2012 (or thereabouts) then scrapped in 2016 is not only back on but that the DfT are actually pushing it. £0.5bn of the bailout is a loan that has to be repaid, obviously TfL are going to struggle financially in the immediate future but if they took control of "Metro" services this would give them a lot of extra revenue. Also a lot more cost though, especially if they want to bring the South Eastern stations up to London Overground standard. (Edit, maybe we should move this strand of discussion off into a different thread. There is probably one about TFL taking over metro services around somewhere) |
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on May 31, 2020 11:35:17 GMT
This suggests that the planned transfer of National Rail "Metro" services to TfL first suggested around 2012 (or thereabouts) then scrapped in 2016 is not only back on but that the DfT are actually pushing it. £0.5bn of the bailout is a loan that has to be repaid, obviously TfL are going to struggle financially in the immediate future but if they took control of "Metro" services this would give them a lot of extra revenue. Also a lot more cost though, especially if they want to bring the South Eastern stations up to London Overground standard. (Edit, maybe we should move this strand of discussion off into a different thread. There is probably one about TFL taking over metro services around somewhere) As this is a "DfT request" I suspect the government are willing to finance any upgrades in order to offload responsibility for suburban services onto TfL |
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,776
|
Post by Chris M on May 31, 2020 11:47:00 GMT
I would hope, but it wouldn't be the first time where responsibility has been offloaded from central government to local authorities without any consequent increase in funding. It wouldn't even be the first time this government has done it to TfL if I've understood the road maintenance changes correctly.
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,921
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on May 31, 2020 12:09:48 GMT
Recent TfL mentions of metro services have concentrated on Moorgate services as a starter.
|
|
|
|
Post by MoreToJack on May 31, 2020 18:09:52 GMT
Further rail devolution is explicitly mentioned in the TfL emergency budget, published this week...
|
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on May 31, 2020 21:04:51 GMT
Recent TfL mentions of metro services have concentrated on Moorgate services as a starter. In a way that is a unique situation, as part of the route (albeit only a small part) was run by London Underground in the past. So, are we likely to see Class 717 trains wearing London Overground livery? Or will it be run as a different outfit, in the same way that TfL Rail is not part of the Overground? What might delight passengers would be the seats changing, erm, providing that means to a more comfortable design - a conversion to transverse seats will not be so welcome. |
|
|
|
Post by goldenarrow on May 31, 2020 21:05:12 GMT
Who could have predicted that a chain of events stemming from a global pandemic could be the resurrector of rail devolution in London? Strange times indeed.
|
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on May 31, 2020 21:34:23 GMT
Recent TfL mentions of metro services have concentrated on Moorgate services as a starter. In a way that is a unique situation, as part of the route (albeit only a small part) was run by London Underground in the past. So, are we likely to see Class 717 trains wearing London Overground livery? Or will it be run as a different outfit, in the same way that TfL Rail is not part of the Overground? What might delight passengers would be the seats changing, erm, providing that means to a more comfortable design - a conversion to transverse seats will not be so welcome. There might be some scope for separating this off to a dedicated thread, if it’s looking like becoming a new thing going forward. I cannot are any value in converting the Moorgate service to Overground. It’s already had major investment in the form of new trains, which are of an almost identical model to the class 700s operating on the outer suburban services. Likewise they are maintained alongside other GN units at Hornsey (I can’t recall if they are maintained in the new Siemens facility, or in the more established GTR part of the depot - from memory I think it’s the latter). There’s interworking of crews, and separating this off for a 4tph service on each arm would be rather inefficient, especially with stabling being spread over four separate locations. With new trains already running at the maximum length the infrastructure will allow, and the infrastructure running at full stretch (the timetable is already pretty good considering how busy the route is), we’re left with station enhancements. Many of the stations are already staffed and gated, some from first train to last train, and none are in a poor state of repair. Unless one has a preference for orange paint and Johnston typeface, I can see no tangible passenger benefits arising from this route going over. |
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,921
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on Jun 1, 2020 3:58:38 GMT
Recent TfL mentions of metro services have concentrated on Moorgate services as a starter. I've found what I was referring to in the 2019 TfL Business Plan - 2020/21 to 2024/25. London Overground and TfL Rail are claimed as examples of how TfL can significantly improve customer service when commuter rail services are devolved. Since taking over, TfL have increased train frequency, increased station staff, reduced delays, improved accessibility and brought affordable, seamless travel into and around the Capital. TfL are working with the DfT to consider how additional rail services, such as Great Northern, could be transferred so that TfL can improve them and support new jobs, homes and economic growth. content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-business-plan-2019.pdf shown on page 96 (49 of 84 on pdf file) |
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Jun 1, 2020 6:56:34 GMT
Who could have predicted that a chain of events stemming from a global pandemic could be the resurrector of rail devolution in London? Strange times indeed. This was planned pre-Covid 19, the Mayor had discussions about rail devolution with the new Secretary of State for Transport in August 2019 but given TfL's current financial situation the question was whether they would be able to continue with the plans. |
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Jun 1, 2020 7:02:26 GMT
Recent TfL mentions of metro services have concentrated on Moorgate services as a starter. In a way that is a unique situation, as part of the route (albeit only a small part) was run by London Underground in the past. So, are we likely to see Class 717 trains wearing London Overground livery? Or will it be run as a different outfit, in the same way that TfL Rail is not part of the Overground? What might delight passengers would be the seats changing, erm, providing that means to a more comfortable design - a conversion to transverse seats will not be so welcome. Has London Overground ever changed the seating on rolling stock transferred from other TOCs? |
|
