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Post by roman80 on Feb 19, 2017 11:09:35 GMT
All the discussion about the H and C has got me curious: what is the anticipated final frequency of trains in the peaks on each of the district line branches and circle post full signalling upgrade and S stock introduction?
Given the mammoth amount of data now available on individual travel patterns, this could be a great opportunity to do some proper modelling and reworking of current patterns to benefit the most people backed by real data.
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Post by superteacher on Feb 19, 2017 12:38:55 GMT
There will certainly be far more possibilities. It depends how creative the powers-that-be are!
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 19, 2017 16:31:23 GMT
All the discussion about the H and C has got me curious: what is the anticipated final frequency of trains in the peaks on each of the district line branches and circle post full signalling upgrade and S stock introduction? Given the mammoth amount of data now available on individual travel patterns, this could be a great opportunity to do some proper modelling and reworking of current patterns to benefit the most people backed by real data. 
content.tfl.gov.uk/fpc-160121-item11-four-lines-modernisation.pdf
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 24, 2017 16:47:52 GMT
A recent update on this subject has emerged, proposed peak frequencies:
Wimbledon - Edgware Road every 7½mins/8tph
Wimbledon - City every 7½mins/8tph
(combines to every 3¾mins/16tph Wimbledon - Earl's Court)
Ealing Broadway - city/east every 7½mins/8tph
Richmond - city/east 7½mins/8tph
(combines to every 3¾mins/16tph Turnham Green - Earl's Court)
Circle Line every 7½mins/8tph
Hammersmith & City Line every 7½mins/8tph
(combines to every 3¾mins/16tph Hammersmith - Edgware Road)
(combines to every 3¾mins/16tph High Street Ken - Edgware Road)
Upminster - city/west every 3¾mins/16tph
(combines with H&C to every 112½secs/32tph Barking - Aldgate East)
Tower Hill - Gloucester Road (combined District and Circle) to every 112½secs/32tph
Amersham - city every 15mins/4tph
Chesham - city every 30mins/2tph
Watford - city every 6mins/10tph
(combines to every 3¾mins/16tph Moor Park - Harrow-on-the-Hill)
Uxbridge - city every 5mins/12tph
(combines to every 2¼mins/28tph Harrow-on-the-Hill - Baker Street)
Baker Street - city (combined Circle and H&C and MET) to every 112½secs/32tph
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cso
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Post by cso on Oct 25, 2017 11:26:43 GMT
Amersham - city every 20mins/4tph I'm assuming that's just the Met services? Although you can't run every 20 mins and run 4 trains per hour as far as I can tell. |
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Post by superteacher on Oct 25, 2017 12:53:17 GMT
Interesting that after the upgrade, Circle and H&C peak frequency will be the same as it was 25 years ago!
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Post by John Tuthill on Oct 25, 2017 13:10:52 GMT
Interesting that after the upgrade, Circle and H&C peak frequency will be the same as it was 25 years ago! And that my son is called progress  |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 25, 2017 15:44:28 GMT
Amersham - city every 20mins/4tph I'm assuming that's just the Met services? Although you can't run every 20 mins and run 4 trains per hour as far as I can tell. indeed, getting older i can't add-up ! and yes, MET only as Chiltern doesn't run to 'the city'. |
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Post by A60stock on Oct 25, 2017 16:09:25 GMT
whilst the post upgrades look great. Is there any info regarding off peak frequencies?
Will the met regain any fast trains off peak post upgrade?
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Oct 25, 2017 19:57:25 GMT
Will the Chiltern service run every 30min/2tph to balance the Chesham trains, combining south of C&L to run every 15mins/4tph which will nicely mesh with the Amersham (Met) trains?
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Post by howda62 on Oct 26, 2017 9:52:09 GMT
Chiltern already run 4tph during the morning peak, 2 of which are non-stop after Amersham, I don't think (at least hope not) that'll be reduced. These run alongside the existing 4tph Met service from Amersham. I'm not sure why the recent public timetables summary page have cited only a 2tph Amersham-Aldgate peak service, possibly the 2 semi-fasts are not counted because you can catch a later Chiltern to get into London sooner. I wonder if the new timetable will have a better clockface timing with a true 15 minute interval between Met trains, and I really hope the fasts are retained.
The current morning Amersham Met peak service is improved from a few years ago though when the Chesham shuttle was running and there was only a 4tph Met service south of Chalfont - and with 2 Chesham through trains taking 2 of those slots in the 7am-8am hour, it left only 2 Met trains southbound from Amersham during that peak hour. A bizarre situation making the Amersham Met off-peak service double that of the peak. Now at least it's a combined 6tph Met service south of Chalfont throughout the peak.
I too wonder what the off peak service frequency will be like.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 26, 2017 21:10:14 GMT
I hope this isn't the end-game here, it isn't very ambitious, and as others have commented, is comparable or inferior to levels of service 40-50 years back.
Granted, however, dwell times and hence running times are very different now.
Anyone else see a massive deficiency with Wimbledon service? 16tph will mean it gets less than Uxbridge (including the pic). Maybe another 8tph Wimbledon - HSK could be added.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 26, 2017 21:25:07 GMT
Interesting that after the upgrade, Circle and H&C peak frequency will be the same as it was 25 years ago! And that my son is called progress There was a quote a few years ago (can’t remember who) which was made after the Central line upgrade had been finished. “The Central line service is now almost as good as the days before they spent £750 million on it.” |
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Post by roman80 on Oct 27, 2017 12:51:49 GMT
I hope this isn't the end-game here, it isn't very ambitious, and as others have commented, is comparable or inferior to levels of service 40-50 years back. Granted, however, dwell times and hence running times are very different now. Anyone else see a massive deficiency with Wimbledon service? 16tph will mean it gets less than Uxbridge (including the pic). Maybe another 8tph Wimbledon - HSK could be added. Yes, I agree re Wimbledon branch deficiency. Most commuters on this branch wish to head on the lower portion of the District into central London and 'the City'. The potential changes actually take a train away from this avenue: 8tph vs current 9tph. However, the more even spacing may mean most people will not notice. At present two 'City' services follow three minutes apart and then there is a larger gap of eight to ten minutes. So, while nine trains an hour, the spacing is currently uneven. The even frequency hopefully will encourage more people to take an Edgeware Road train and change at Earls Court. While the trains from Richmond and Ealing Broadway reach Earls Court more lightly loaded than the City-bound trains from Wimbledon each morning, sometimes the current working timetable doesn't encourage passengers to 'always take the next train to Earls Court'. For example, train 72 and train 65 leaving Wimbledon just before 7:30am: passengers alighting at Earls Court from train 72 find the next City-bound train (train 65) is often too packed to board at Earls Court and were better off waiting at their local station for train 65, which follows 3 minutes later from Wimbledon. The ideal solution for the Wimbledon branch woes may be more 'City' trains at the expense of Edgeware Road/HSK trains. However, the logistics at Earls Court of sending trains from platform 4 to Ealing Broadway or Richmond seem complex. Crossrail may help to balance the loads a little more equally if the change at Paddington to the Elizabeth line is not too lengthy. This may allow passengers from the Wimbledon branch to get to the City (Liverpool St) and Canary Wharf quicker than current options. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 27, 2017 16:29:20 GMT
Quite possibly so yes. The trouble with Earls Court, as has been alluded to on this forum over the years is that as this diagram shows cdn.londonreconnections.com/2013/Earls-Court-Modified.png the non-conflicting moves are non-mirrored; Ealing-HSK, HSK-Wimbledon, Wimbledon-City, City-Ealing. A timetable with a natural bias towards that service pattern might be able to increase throughput beyond 16tph per track. Then again it is surprising it is challenging without service pattern changes. What was the District managing in the 60s before 8car trains were abolished through EC? |
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Post by superteacher on Oct 28, 2017 0:06:30 GMT
Quite possibly so yes. The trouble with Earls Court, as has been alluded to on this forum over the years is that as this diagram shows cdn.londonreconnections.com/2013/Earls-Court-Modified.png the non-conflicting moves are non-mirrored; Ealing-HSK, HSK-Wimbledon, Wimbledon-City, City-Ealing. A timetable with a natural bias towards that service pattern might be able to increase throughput beyond 16tph per track. Then again it is surprising it is challenging without service pattern changes. What was the District managing in the 60s before 8car trains were abolished through EC? I’m sure that 32 tph or more was scheduled on the south side of the Circle in years gone by. Whether it was achieved in practice is another matter. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2017 5:09:12 GMT
Quite possibly so yes. The trouble with Earls Court, as has been alluded to on this forum over the years is that as this diagram shows cdn.londonreconnections.com/2013/Earls-Court-Modified.png the non-conflicting moves are non-mirrored; Ealing-HSK, HSK-Wimbledon, Wimbledon-City, City-Ealing. A timetable with a natural bias towards that service pattern might be able to increase throughput beyond 16tph per track. Then again it is surprising it is challenging without service pattern changes. What was the District managing in the 60s before 8car trains were abolished through EC? With all the speed controlled signalling it had I believe from memory it was at close to 40tph |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 28, 2017 12:24:46 GMT
Sounds likely. I believe Tom has commented elsewhere that the northern half of the Circle is or was signalled for 40tph; wouldnt be a surprise if the south side was as well at one point.
Multi-billion pound limitations eh!
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Post by superteacher on Oct 28, 2017 12:31:27 GMT
With all of the conflicting movements, I doubt that they ever gor near 40 tph in practice.
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Post by t697 on Nov 2, 2017 1:07:36 GMT
Back in about 1977 I seem to recall being trained that good fixed block LUL signalling aimed to get 90 second headways to support 2 minute service intervals or in other words a 30tph timetable in the busiest areas. I also recall that hardly anywhere on the Underground actually achieved it.
One thing that might have helped on the north side of the Circle back in the fifties was that the trains were shorter. Circles were only 5 cars and most Mets were shorter than the current ones too.
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Post by 100andthirty on Nov 3, 2017 16:55:22 GMT
Building on t697's comment, there is a jolly good example of a good fixed block signalling system on LU today - the Victoria line. It's basically a fixed block system with lots of blocks.
There are other constraints that prevent replicating the Victoria line performance on the sub surface railway. Two key features are very tight in-town terminus berths and the flat junctions (as others have said).
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Nov 3, 2017 20:49:55 GMT
Supposedly that was one of the few merits of the old Uxbridge-Barking idea that rears its head once every 40 years; Aldgate became 7 car only, reducing junction occupation and giving effectively an extra 50 foot of terminal berth.
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 4, 2017 17:27:44 GMT
I accept that it would cause horrendous logistical issues whilst being done but if it were possible to make northbound District Line trains from West Brompton directly access the northernmost platform at Earls Court (ie: without conflicting with trains from Richmond / Ealing Bdwy / Olympia) then it would be possible to significantly reduce conflicts here - and hence run more trains to Wimbledon.
Even if a lack of track capacity to Edgware Road meant that some had to terminate at High Street Kensington it would still facilitate a more frequent service on the Wimbledon line.
Would a three month period of works with people working 24/7 be sufficient time? Especially if done after Crossrail has opened there could possibly be a reduction in passenger flows which help cope with the disruption? Maybe passengers who change trains at Hammersmith and travel via Wood Lane and White City (for the Central Line) could be offered some sort of discount as enticements to not switch to the Piccadilly Line? It should be easy to identify these passengers via touch-ins and outs of Oyster / Contactless cards.
Simon
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Post by superteacher on Nov 4, 2017 20:53:18 GMT
I accept that it would cause horrendous logistical issues whilst being done but if it were possible to make northbound District Line trains from West Brompton directly access the northernmost platform at Earls Court (ie: without conflicting with trains from Richmond / Ealing Bdwy / Olympia) then it would be possible to significantly reduce conflicts here - and hence run more trains to Wimbledon. Even if a lack of track capacity to Edgware Road meant that some had to terminate at High Street Kensington it would still facilitate a more frequent service on the Wimbledon line. Would a three month period of works with people working 24/7 be sufficient time? Especially if done after Crossrail has opened there could possibly be a reduction in passenger flows which help cope with the disruption? Maybe passengers who change trains at Hammersmith and travel via Wood Lane and White City (for the Central Line) could be offered some sort of discount as enticements to not switch to the Piccadilly Line? It should be easy to identify these passengers via touch-ins and outs of Oyster / Contactless cards. Simon Interesting, but we are venturing into RIPAS territory here.
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