DWS
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Post by DWS on Jun 18, 2017 10:08:08 GMT
Service running Hammersmith to Wood Lane this morning. Any one know which road is being used as the single line ?
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 18, 2017 10:21:15 GMT
You're assuming only one road is in use.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Jun 18, 2017 10:34:15 GMT
You're assuming only one road is in use. Yes could be a train on each road as was done on the Stanmore branch of the Jubilee line on a few weekends many years ago.
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 18, 2017 10:38:50 GMT
One train locked in on each line. First occurrence for at least 10 years as far as anyone can make out.
Hope to have normal working resumed by 1400, but that's still subject to confirmation.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jun 18, 2017 11:03:28 GMT
The way tfl pander to bloody westfield is nauseating.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 18, 2017 11:17:35 GMT
The way tfl pander to bloody westfield is nauseating. It might be tied into binding obligations about the extent of service offered given the transport infrastructure funding that Westfield provided and whatever the local authority required in terms of planning and operation conditions. Note this is speculation on my part but TfL may have little or no choice but to run something. This is also a wider "public service" context too in terms of at least running something that's feasible despite constraints that are out of TfL's control.
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 18, 2017 11:22:26 GMT
Nothing to do with Westfield - the idea is to provide some relief to the Piccadilly line which was the only service operating yesterday from Hammersmith. It allows additional connectivity to both the Central line and London Overground.
Considering how labour intensive it is, there's plenty who would prefer it to not be in place!
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Jun 18, 2017 11:22:52 GMT
I suppose the rationale is that folk can change at Wood Lane to the Central Line at White city if they need to get into town. This is still a problem for some, as there is no interchange at NHG.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Jun 18, 2017 11:53:58 GMT
Nothing to do with Westfield - the idea is to provide some relief to the Piccadilly line which was the only service operating yesterday from Hammersmith. It allows additional connectivity to both the Central line and London Overground. Considering how labour intensive it is, there's plenty who would prefer it to not be in place! Has each train a driver at each end ?
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 18, 2017 11:57:45 GMT
No. Changing ends as appropriate, but each train has to be double-staffed due to the tripcocks being cut-out.
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 18, 2017 17:49:36 GMT
The planned resumption of services didn't happen and single line working will be remaining in place for the rest of today.
No decision has yet been taken on tomorrow, but staff are expecting the shuttle service to remain in place until further notice.
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Post by kesmet on Jun 18, 2017 19:21:33 GMT
I imagine that it must have been difficult for passengers, not knowing to which platform they should head (since the first south/north-bound train could depart from either platform).
Did that also require extra staffing, or were signs considered sufficient?
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Jun 18, 2017 19:24:30 GMT
I imagine that it must have been difficult for passengers, not knowing to which platform they should head (since the first south/north-bound train could depart from either platform). Did that also require extra staffing, or were signs considered sufficient? Hammersmith and City line is east and west.
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Post by kesmet on Jun 18, 2017 19:31:19 GMT
Hammersmith and City line is east and west. Yes, but this particular section is very definitely north/south...
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 18, 2017 19:37:02 GMT
Hammersmith and City line is east and west. Yes, but this particular section is very definitely north/south... Irrelevant. The entire C+H is an east-west railway, and all signage and nomenclature states that. Using north/south does nothing but to fuel confusion. Additional staffing has been in place all day as every platform must be staffed for the 'wrong line' portion. Single line working is a very labour-intensive operation. Lots of whiteboards at the gatelines but they're getting very little attention. Staff have been very good at shouting across platforms or discouraging passengers from coming up the stairs to the 'wrong' platform. Latest estimates is that this service will continue into tomorrow.
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Post by rsdworker on Jun 18, 2017 23:11:33 GMT
TFL tweeted that services will be remain for further notice meaning the shuttle will remain for long time
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 18, 2017 23:27:53 GMT
Yes, but this particular section is very definitely north/south... Irrelevant. The entire C+H is an east-west railway, Of course some sections are more precisely and correctly labelled as Inner Rail and Outer Rail internally. Traction current sections is a good example of this.
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 18, 2017 23:31:04 GMT
TFL tweeted that services will be remain for further notice meaning the shuttle will remain for long time I don't think anyone knows for sure. It's all almost entirely at the prerogative of the LFB, and the situation can (and on occasions has) changed at short notice.
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 19, 2017 2:49:46 GMT
TFL tweeted that services will be remain for further notice meaning the shuttle will remain for long time Take everything in TfL’s social media with a pinch of salt. Those of us involved with running the shuttle service will have the most reliable information. Re-opening is entirely in the hands of other organisations at this time.
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Post by brigham on Jun 19, 2017 7:48:55 GMT
Good to know that some operators can still handle emergency working.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 19, 2017 8:46:48 GMT
MoreToJack I think @rdsworker's comment was a combination of what the TfL social media people said ("until further notice", which is what the website currently says) and their own interpretation of that ("the shuttle will remain for a long time"). The shuttle will remain until TfL are given notice (by the police and/or fire brigade) that the lines through Latimer Road station can reopen, plus however long it takes for shuttle working to be withdrawn and normal working reintroduced. TfL have no knowledge of how long it will be before the lines can reopen. As far as the general public knows it could be hours it could be weeks - whether TfL know any more precisely than that I don't know. I don't know how long the conversion will take, but if the train on the westbound road happens to be running westbound (and vice versa) when the all clear is given then it could be quicker than if they're both running opposite.
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Post by piccboy on Jun 19, 2017 11:07:02 GMT
MoreToJack I think @rdsworker's comment was a combination of what the TfL social media people said ("until further notice", which is what the website currently says) and their own interpretation of that ("the shuttle will remain for a long time"). The shuttle will remain until TfL are given notice (by the police and/or fire brigade) that the lines through Latimer Road station can reopen, plus however long it takes for shuttle working to be withdrawn and normal working reintroduced. TfL have no knowledge of how long it will be before the lines can reopen. As far as the general public knows it could be hours it could be weeks - whether TfL know any more precisely than that I don't know. I don't know how long the conversion will take, but if the train on the westbound road happens to be running westbound (and vice versa) when the all clear is given then it could be quicker than if they're both running opposite. Very doubtful that the service would just resume with trains in the shuttle service continuing there current journey as there are a number of things to be done before this can happen. For example, after getting the all clear from the London Fire Brigade all assets deployed on the track to enable single line working would need to be removed. The section of track closed between Edgware Road and Wood Lane would need to be inspected for any obstructions and Duty Managers would need to organise Train Operators who may have already been redeployed for the existing service.
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Post by superteacher on Jun 19, 2017 19:20:03 GMT
Staff at Shepherd's Bush Market did a great job of directing people to the right platforms, as eastbound and westbound trains were leaving from either platform. Poor show at Wood Lane though. No staff downstairs to direct passengers.
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Post by t697 on Jun 19, 2017 20:03:28 GMT
I wonder; Could this be done after ATC is commissioned? Even with Restricted Manual for the wrong direction moves.
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 19, 2017 20:21:25 GMT
I assume that Circle Line trains are travelling the full loop at the present time. The TfL website did not state either way.
I too wonder if the shuttle currently being operated will also be possible once the lines have been automated.
Simon
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 19, 2017 21:30:50 GMT
I wonder; Could this be done after ATC is commissioned? Even with Restricted Manual for the wrong direction moves. The answer is yes; all the current emergency operating procedures can be done, in fact setting them up is almost the same as on a conventional line, although there are some additional protection options available, for example closing a track instead of maintaining signals at danger. The more awkward bit would be taking it out afterwards, unlike conventional signalling there would likely be a lot of computer work required to restore the Seltrac system to its normal state. Likewise, for this reason during SLW everything would likely be in RM, even the right-direction stuff.
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 19, 2017 21:30:53 GMT
Very doubtful that the service would just resume with trains in the shuttle service continuing there current journey as there are a number of things to be done before this can happen. For example, after getting the all clear from the London Fire Brigade all assets deployed on the track to enable single line working would need to be removed. The section of track closed between Edgware Road and Wood Lane would need to be inspected for any obstructions and Duty Managers would need to organise Train Operators who may have already been redeployed for the existing service. This is correct. The procedure requires a last train to run through the single line working before the line can be handed back (albeit not necessarily in the wrong direction), so you'd have to run any trains at the 'wrong' end back before you can resume. There also needs to be time allowed to unsecure all points (requiring a discharge of traction current), remove the detonators and carry out a frame test to ensure everything is working. Beyond that, it would take some time to get train operators to the right place (the shuttle being staffed with drivers from across the line, not just Hammersmith depot) and then to start repopulating the service. You've also got to reform the trains on the rest of the route into correct paths for normal working. How it happens remains anyone's guess for now, but in many ways it would be easier to remove SLW at the end of traffic rather than part way through the day. Staff at Shepherd's Bush Market did a great job of directing people to the right platforms, as eastbound and westbound trains were leaving from either platform. Poor show at Wood Lane though. No staff downstairs to direct passengers. We're struggling with staff numbers to reliably run this as it is. Even with Ladbroke Grove, Latimer Road, Westbourne Park and Royal Oak closed and unstaffed, numbers are thin on the ground. Wood Lane has to have two staff as handsignallers, Shepherd's Bush Market and Goldhawk Road need at least one (ideally two) and Hammersmith needs at least two also. I believe during 'core' hours additional SRT CSAs and travel ambassadors were drafted in, and hopefully it's something that will be improved on as the days go on. It has certainly been fed back up the chain from a number of angles. I wonder; Could this be done after ATC is commissioned? Even with Restricted Manual for the wrong direction moves. It could, yes. I don't know enough about the CBTC implementation if it could be done as a fully-signalled operation (in theory CBTC is bi-di, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Underground have had that functionality removed, as they have on at least one of the TBTC installs). It could otherwise be done with RM but by that stage the service starts to significantly slow down. We can manage a 15-minute headway as one direction is at linespeed. You'd be struggling to maintain that if having to run at max 10mph in both directions, or for any further length. Beyond a 15 minute headway you might as well not bother. I assume that Circle Line trains are travelling the full loop at the present time. The TfL website did not state either way. I too wonder if the shuttle currently being operated will also be possible once the lines have been automated. Simon Yes. Six trains on the Inner rail and six trains on the Outer rail. Seven trains are running the Hammersmith and City line between Edgware Road and Barking.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 19, 2017 21:46:36 GMT
Staff at Shepherd's Bush Market did a great job of directing people to the right platforms, as eastbound and westbound trains were leaving from either platform. Poor show at Wood Lane though. No staff downstairs to direct passengers. We're struggling with staff numbers to reliably run this as it is. Even with Ladbroke Grove, Latimer Road, Westbourne Park and Royal Oak closed and unstaffed, numbers are thin on the ground. Wood Lane has to have two staff as handsignallers, Shepherd's Bush Market and Goldhawk Road need at least one (ideally two) and Hammersmith needs at least two also. I believe during 'core' hours additional SRT CSAs and travel ambassadors were drafted in, and hopefully it's something that will be improved on as the days go on. It has certainly been fed back up the chain from a number of angles. There was someone who looked like a manager of some description and two people who seemed like CSAs on the gateline at Hammersmith at the tail end of the evening peak today. At Wood Lane just over 15 minutes later (I missed a shuttle by about half a platform length) there was a woman in a pink hi-vi helping people in the ticket hall. One person asked her how long the closure would be, I didn't quite hear the reply but I think it was "until this time tomorrow, as far as we know" or maybe "at least until this time tomorrow...".
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 19, 2017 21:55:19 GMT
There is the "Single Line Working manager' which is being taken from the line's Duty Reliability Manager and has overall control of the operation, working with the line controller, trains manager and signaller as appropriate. Station staff in orange is a mixture of CSAs and CSSs (the group only has a couple of CSAs ordinarily, at Ladbroke Grove and Hammersmith - additional SRT CSAs, as mentioned, are also assisting). The woman in pink at Wood Lane will be a travel ambassador - office or other non-operational staff who hold limited licenses to assist for disruption or special working.
All indications are that the closure will be going on for longer than just tomorrow, but we're still playing it day by day - so "at least until this time tomorrow..." is the best line to take.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 19, 2017 22:09:58 GMT
It's been said that trains are double-staffed on account of tripcocks being cut out, which I completely understand when working bang road.
Does this still apply when working in the normal direction?
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