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Post by snoggle on Sept 20, 2017 9:41:17 GMT
TfL have launched a consultation on plans to expand capacity at Holborn Station. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/holborn-station-upgrade/The basic outline of the scheme is quoted below. There will be a public exhibition held in Conway Hall for three days in early-mid October. Main highlights (from a very quick skim of the consultation info) are new ticket hall in Proctor Street - largely to give better / faster access to the Central Line Proctor St being closed for 4 years (2021-25) for construction of the new ticket hall. Use of part of one of the Aldwych shuttle platforms to create a widened concourse for westbound passengers A new escalator shaft parallel to the 3 escalator bank from Picc platforms to "intermediate level" but with new link corridors to the Central line and Proctor St ticket hall. Step free access through the addition of two new lifts in the existing Kingsway ticket hall Kingsway entrance being closed for two years (2025-27) while the lifts are added. Looks like the station would have to function for these 2 years with just the Proctor St entrance available. That'll be "fun". All in all a tremendous amount of engineering work to be achieved in a very constrained location.
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Post by miff on Sept 21, 2017 6:22:49 GMT
Interesting proposal. Sadly it looks like reuse of the closed platform space will permanently disconnect the Aldwych branch.
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Post by trt on Sept 21, 2017 14:38:20 GMT
It's certainly a lot of work!
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Post by snoggle on Sept 22, 2017 0:09:00 GMT
Interesting proposal. Sadly it looks like reuse of the closed platform space will permanently disconnect the Aldwych branch. Yep. I am left wondering if something "clever" will be done to remove spoil from the works at Holborn via the Aldwych branch and Aldwych station - some form of conveyor and then lorry collection or even something out to the river. Obviously that's an extreme and possibly complex option compared to just removal via the Proctor St worksite but I suspect they'll have to work from two locations to get the work done in 4 years. I haven't read the supporting documents so it's possible these issues have already been considered to try to determine the extent of lorry movements / disruption.
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Post by stapler on Sept 22, 2017 7:10:40 GMT
Reduced walking time for those going to locations east of the station? Why not a concerted attempt to get them to use Chancery Lane? A much cheaper option...
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Post by Chris M on Sept 22, 2017 8:49:47 GMT
Because the station can't handle the interchange traffic, nor can the Central line cope with those people from the Piccadilly line who would be travelling one stop, especially when you add the people who will not be getting off at Holborn. I don't know whether Chancery Lane would cope with the extra traffic. Also, just because their destination is east of Holborn doesn't mean that walking from Chancery Lane isn't significantly further, those on the Central line who want destinations closer to Chancery Lane will already be using it.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 22, 2017 9:08:03 GMT
although the distance between Holborn and Chancery Lane by train is only 400m (source: CULG), because of the direction the escalators slope, at street level it is 0.4 miles (about 650m - source Google maps). There is therefore a considerable area east of Holborn station before Chancery Lane becomes the preferable option, even if you are on the Central Line. Holborn is also served by buses heading into the tubeless area around Theobalds Road.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 22, 2017 9:49:43 GMT
Surprised an additional entrance south along Kingsway (on same side as existing building) couldn’t be provided.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 22, 2017 10:44:28 GMT
Surprised an additional entrance south along Kingsway (on same side as existing building) couldn’t be provided. There used to be one - it was called Aldwych Station (in the sense that its closure increased the number of people needing to use the Kingsway entrance and escalators). Could a travelator be installed through the Aldwych tunnel to connect Holborn with Temple station? (Maybe not - it's at least eight times further than the Bank Travelator!)
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Post by stapler on Sept 22, 2017 13:31:35 GMT
Nobody in their right mind would interchange at Holborn to go one stop east on the Central Line. From Chancery Lane station entrance by Staple Inn to the corner of Red Lion St is about 350 yards level walk taking about 5 minutes. I used to work in the tubeless area around Theobalds Rd, a lot of which is accessible from Russell Square. A Proctor St entrance would be useful for that, but at what cost? A better and cheaper expedient might be to travelate the Tram Tunnel to the end of Theobalds Rd. Much of the Holborn problem stems from it being an awkward late interchange spatchcocked into an extant Picc station and a Central Line tunnel some 30 years after the opening of the CLR. The absurdly narrow pedestrian stairs from the Central WB are an example of this. So LU should minimise the incentives to use the station!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 22, 2017 14:20:05 GMT
From Chancery Lane station entrance by Staple Inn to the corner of Red Lion St is about 350 yards level walk taking about 5 minutes. Hardly Annapurna, but it isn't level - there's a reason High Holborn got its name. About 1 in 40 I think.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 22, 2017 15:08:28 GMT
Nobody in their right mind would interchange at Holborn to go one stop east on the Central Line. From Chancery Lane station entrance by Staple Inn to the corner of Red Lion St is about 350 yards level walk taking about 5 minutes. I used to work in the tubeless area around Theobalds Rd, a lot of which is accessible from Russell Square. A Proctor St entrance would be useful for that, but at what cost? A better and cheaper expedient might be to travelate the Tram Tunnel to the end of Theobalds Rd. Much of the Holborn problem stems from it being an awkward late interchange spatchcocked into an extant Picc station and a Central Line tunnel some 30 years after the opening of the CLR. The absurdly narrow pedestrian stairs from the Central WB are an example of this. So LU should minimise the incentives to use the station! So are you suggesting LU do nothing about Holborn Stn? I've not used it in a long while but I did use it in the AM peak a few years back and it was horrific. I suspect, being generous, the station is on the border of being compliant with fire regulation evacuation times in the peaks due to the excessive crowding and slow movement through corridors. The current situation is not sustainable if there is any more growth. The planned upgrade of the Picc Line, if it happens, will bring in many more people. Even if Crossrail provides relief to the Central Line we know the eventual trend is that the Central will fill back up again. Given Crossrail has no stn in the vicinity of Holborn it is reasonable to assume that people may change at TCR and then continue on to Holborn on the Central but we'll have to see if that pans out. Trying to "force" people to use other stations is not very popular - especially if people so no eventual gain or improvement. It's been tolerated at TCR and to some extent Bond St with Holborn and Ox Circus taking the brunt of diverted passengers with all the ensuing delays and congestion. I can't see people being willing to use Chancery Lane just because TfL say "Holborn's too busy and btw we're not doing anything to make it better". To be honest, given TfL's financial pressures, I'm surprised TfL are progressing capacity works at Holborn.
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Post by trt on Sept 22, 2017 15:40:44 GMT
Having looked at the plans, I can see that the Proctor St entrance would be a good place because there's not much going on at the surface there - not brilliant unless there's some pedestrianising work happens too. BUT there's something odd with that quadrant diagram in that the picture suggests that the south eastern quadrant is the direction of greatest destination, but the text says the north eastern quadrant. With Lincoln's Inn Fields sitting practically on top of the bit they're planning to do some tunnelling in, and having journeyed frequently to the Maughan Library and the RCJ and found it more of a walk than I would have anticipated for a central London venue, wouldn't it make sense to use the gardens there as a temporary work yard for the tunnelling and sinking of a new shaft, leaving a permanent surface / subway entrance there?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 22, 2017 16:31:56 GMT
Having looked at the plans, I can see that the Proctor St entrance would be a good place because there's not much going on at the surface there - not brilliant unless there's some pedestrianising work happens too. Wider pavements and restriction of Procter Street to buses and cycles only is part of the plan at street level, according to the planning document With Lincoln's Inn Fields sitting practically on top of the bit they're planning to do some tunnelling in, wouldn't it make sense to use the gardens there as a temporary work yard for the tunnelling and sinking of a new shaft, leaving a permanent surface / subway entrance there? I'm fairly sure LIF has listed status, and plonking a station in the gardens (or in the surrounding buildings) would make the planning battles at Camden Town look like a walk in the park(!). Moreover, the plan shows that the south end of Procter Street is almost directly above the Central Line platforms, whereas even the closest corner of Lincolns Inn Fields is a good hundred yards away. A long walk, and a lot of tunnelling. And in the immediate vicinity of Holborn station, there are many more people travelling NE than SE, simply because of that large open space. Those going SE are going further, on average, and reducing a ten minute walk by 10% is, perceptually, less of a benefit than halving a two minute walk, even if the saving in absolute time is 60 seconds in both cases.
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Post by 35b on Sept 22, 2017 19:57:25 GMT
From Chancery Lane station entrance by Staple Inn to the corner of Red Lion St is about 350 yards level walk taking about 5 minutes. Hardly Annapurna, but it isn't level - there's a reason High Holborn got its name. About 1 in 40 I think. I work at Holborn Circus, and wouldn’t think of using the Central Line to get to Holborn.
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Post by londoner on Sept 22, 2017 21:06:11 GMT
I for one think its fantastic news that a very busy station will be getting a capacity increase. I can't understand any of the negative comments which object the purpose of the station upgrade.
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Post by trt on Sept 23, 2017 5:32:37 GMT
Having looked at the plans, I can see that the Proctor St entrance would be a good place because there's not much going on at the surface there - not brilliant unless there's some pedestrianising work happens too. Wider pavements and restriction of Procter Street to buses and cycles only is part of the plan at street level, according to the planning document With Lincoln's Inn Fields sitting practically on top of the bit they're planning to do some tunnelling in, wouldn't it make sense to use the gardens there as a temporary work yard for the tunnelling and sinking of a new shaft, leaving a permanent surface / subway entrance there? I'm fairly sure LIF has listed status, and plonking a station in the gardens (or in the surrounding buildings) would make the planning battles at Camden Town look like a walk in the park(!). Moreover, the plan shows that the south end of Procter Street is almost directly above the Central Line platforms, whereas even the closest corner of Lincolns Inn Fields is a good hundred yards away. A long walk, and a lot of tunnelling. And in the immediate vicinity of Holborn station, there are many more people travelling NE than SE, simply because of that large open space. Those going SE are going further, on average, and reducing a ten minute walk by 10% is, perceptually, less of a benefit than halving a two minute walk, even if the saving in absolute time is 60 seconds in both cases. I wasn't suggesting a station building in LIF, merely an entrance to either a passageway or an underground ticket hall.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 23, 2017 5:59:36 GMT
Lincoln's Inn Fields is indeed Grade II listed while most of the surrounding buildings are also Grade II or Grade I.
Any new entrance has to be disabled accessible so would have to include a lift, I doubt if there is enough non-Listed floor space available to create a new entrance on the south east side of Holborn station
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Post by trt on Sept 23, 2017 9:52:10 GMT
Lincoln's Inn Fields is indeed Grade II listed while most of the surrounding buildings are also Grade II or Grade I. Any new entrance has to be disabled accessible so would have to include a lift, I doubt if there is enough non-Listed floor space available to create a new entrance on the south east side of Holborn station Does that include the "Bar and Kitchen" and the tennis courts? What about the large empty triangle on the south west corner? A lift needn't be intrusive nowadays, look at the one on Cavendish Square.
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Post by phoenixcronin on Sept 23, 2017 10:03:48 GMT
A particular bottleneck in the mornings seems to be the point at which passengers from the EB and WB Piccadilly line converge at the bottom of the escalators going up to the "middle" level if they have both arrived at the same time.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 23, 2017 10:41:51 GMT
Lincoln's Inn Fields is indeed Grade II listed while most of the surrounding buildings are also Grade II or Grade I. Any new entrance has to be disabled accessible so would have to include a lift, I doubt if there is enough non-Listed floor space available to create a new entrance on the south east side of Holborn station Does that include the "Bar and Kitchen" and the tennis courts? What about the large empty triangle on the south west corner? A lift needn't be intrusive nowadays, look at the one on Cavendish Square. I suspect there would be a lot of objections to any major works that disrupted Lincoln's Inn Fields or changed the character of the built environment so getting planning permission would not be easy if at all possible. And as someone else said on here the Procter Street site is almost directly over the Central Line whereas Lincoln's Inn Fields is about 100m south of the Central Line and 100m east of the Piccadilly Line. so would require a bit more tunnelling (beneath some very expensive property) Also you have to bear in mind that London Underground and other subsurface railways have different building regulations and standards to meet when it comes to lifts or anything else compared to other commercial and residential developments Also worth remembering that Lincoln's Inn is full of lawyers who'd be able to tie TfL up in legal knots for years. Best avoid dealing with them
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Post by Chris M on Sept 23, 2017 10:47:12 GMT
For what a new stand-alone entrance to a Zone 1 LU station is likely to look like in terms of scale, Victoria is likely to be fairly representative. That looks to have a footprint of about 10 metres by 10 metres.
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Post by trt on Sept 23, 2017 10:54:03 GMT
The tunnelling would be beneath a road in order to reach the new circulation areas, if I'm reading the plan right.
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Post by trt on Sept 23, 2017 11:09:54 GMT
Is that a cross rail shaft on Fisher Street I can see on the aerial maps? Bit close to Proctor Street, isn't it? Are they using some of the access or something?
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Post by Chris M on Sept 23, 2017 11:58:45 GMT
Crossrail is using the tram tunnel as a worksite, I suspect that the plan for the Holborn upgrade is to do the same.
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Post by Ben on Sept 23, 2017 13:31:32 GMT
Any new entrance has to be disabled accessible so would have to include a lift, I doubt if there is enough non-Listed floor space available to create a new entrance on the south east side of Holborn station Its interesting you say that as it would appear from the diagrams that Proctor Street will not be accessible, having only stairs and escalators, but that the existing entrance will be made so instead. That seems eminently sensible, as it provides accessibility where it can be best accommodated, rather than just out of dogma. Just to come back to another point being made, I don't think anybody is against it in principal. People are just questioning why it is in the second busiest quadrant rather than the first, and lamenting the Aldwych branch. Not only will this sever it once and for all, but it would also appear to make any further N-S tunnel to the east on the same level impossible to accommodate. In the long term that may for whatever reason prove to be regrettable, but given the cost of station work, surely it is important to factor protection for existing options.
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Post by croxleyn on Sept 23, 2017 19:00:44 GMT
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 23, 2017 19:24:45 GMT
What about the large empty triangle on the south west corner? Lincoln's Inn Fields is about 100m south of the Central Line and 100m east of the Piccadilly Line. The nearest (NW) corner is about 100 yards. The SW corner is half way to Aldwych Also worth remembering that Lincoln's Inn is full of lawyers who'd be able to tie TfL up in legal knots for years. Best avoid dealing with them Lincoln's Inn itself, where the lawyers are, is on the east side of LIF, nearer Chancery Lane.
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Post by rsdworker on Sept 25, 2017 0:14:23 GMT
well i had looked at plans but i am concerned about 2 main lifts - they serve 5 levels could be very busy resulting long waits and i agree Proctor Street should be accessible as well - like one at Totteaham street station which has two ticket halls with lifts so i believe more lifts = less waiting for lifts at peak times
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 25, 2017 2:04:10 GMT
Lincoln's Inn Fields is about 100m south of the Central Line and 100m east of the Piccadilly Line. The nearest (NW) corner is about 100 yards. The SW corner is half way to Aldwych Also worth remembering that Lincoln's Inn is full of lawyers who'd be able to tie TfL up in legal knots for years. Best avoid dealing with them Lincoln's Inn itself, where the lawyers are, is on the east side of LIF, nearer Chancery Lane. Lincoln's Inn does indeed form the eastern side of LIF (I used to work at Ede & Ravenscroft on Chancery Lane in the 80s so I'm very familiar with the area and the Inns of Court) but I'm sure m'learned friends would object to any major alterations to their peaceful little corner of London
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