Class 315/317 Replacement

[Deleted]

With the 710s now under construction I wonder what the timetable for replacement of the ex-GA stock is. 

Remembering the rather surprising decision by TfL back in 1998 to withdraw the newer 72TS before the 59/62TS to reduce training and maintenance costs, I wonder whether we're in for a repeat on LO with the 317s going before the 315s. There must be some benefit to reducing the variety of units as soon as possible and the LO 317s would provide enough serviceable parts to keep GAs 317s running without serious investment until they are scrapped in 2020.

There are approximately 20 TfL Rail 315s going spare soon so they could be transferred to LO to standardize the legacy fleet. 

[Deleted]

UPDATE: 315 832/835/840/850/860/861 are now withdrawn and in store at Wolverton.

[waysider]

Do you know if the peculiar 317 unit that was formerly modified and used on the stansted express is stil in service?
With its tables, luggage racks and padded reclining once-first class seats, it made for an interesting journey to enfield town

[norbitonflyer]

There are actually eight of these (class 317/7) on the Overground, along with six class 317/8s which had a less extensive makeover. (Greater Anglia kept another six 317/8s, as well as all the 317/1, /5 and /6s) Don't know if any have had the Stansted seating replaced: I rather doubt it given the units are shortly due for replacement anyway.

[silenthunter]

They weren't replaced when I rode them on the Romford-Upminster line.

[stapler]

There have been various 315s in the south sidings at Ilford when I've passed recently. Are these the withdrawn ones waiting their journey to Wolverton? I've not seen any 317s there, though there was a solitary 345 a couple of weeks back.

Will the 315s be scrapped, or is it intended to cascade them? A pity they're not able to replace some of the diesel tripe they have up north!

[silenthunter]

Possible scrapping. The speculation was they'd go to the Valley Lines in Wales, but that electrification seems to be on hold.

[roythebus]

Surely it's down to the leasing companies that own them what happens next. I don't think TfL own any of them.

[rincew1nd]

Jan 29, 2018 0:45:13 GMT roythebus said:

Surely it's down to the leasing companies that own them what happens next. I don't think TfL own any of them.

Yes and no.

It's down to either government specifying them in a franchise, or a TOC being adventurous and taking them on for something in excess of their franchise commitments. Both need the agreement of the owning ROSCO, but I suspect they'll be happy with anything that brings in some pennies.

[roythebus]

Quite. It seems a crying shame to dispose of what could be seen as "modern stock" but which is nearly life-expired. The early "new" BR stock is close on 40 years old don't forget. My son is the asset manager for the GVT franchise (BR stock) and is always cursing the old units. A lot of the problems are obsolecence of spares, unreliability because of this etc. causing reliability problems. Rust, rubber items like window seals perishing, plywood floors rotting away etc. These unit love them or hate them have had their day and are expensive to run and maintain.

However, there is a balance between all that and the cost of leasing new units compared to the much reduced cost and maintenance costs of old units. I had this choice when I ran a bus company in the 1990's tendering for surrey Council school contracts. It was cheaper to run Routemasters that had been paid for and pay for a conductor than to pay for more modern "box" buses with HP/lease payments! there was also the fuel saving and reduced maintenance costs with the RMs in those days.

My son was glad to get rid of the 442s off his patch as they, despite being lovely units, were suffering rot/electrical problems/door gear troubles etc.

[superteacher]

Thread split. Posts specifically about preservation have been moved here’s:

districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/29218/

Please keep this thread for discussion about the replacement of the stock on LO / TFL Rail.

[A60stock]

does anybody know what the specific timings are for the 710s entering service on the Watford DC line?

Will all the class 378s on the DC be removed in one go as there are only 6 to replace or will the entry be phased in slowly?

[goldenarrow]

Feb 4, 2018 20:43:54 GMT A60stock said:

Will all the class 378s on the DC be removed in one go as there are only 6 to replace or will the entry be phased in slowly?

Given the multitude of teething issues faced with the introduction of the 710's larger siblings on TfL Rail (GEML), I'd be very sceptical of a full fleet switch out even if it only needs to meet an all day twenty minute service.

[scheduler]

The 378 replacement on Watford DC, which was going to enable the introduction of the 4tph service has been pushed back, or at least the 4tph timetable change has. 4tph new timetable is going to be May 19 and not Dec 18. This would rather suggest there are either build or delivery issues with this fleet.

[Ben]

Any news about the order option for additional units? This seemed to be a dead cert a while back - is it still likely?

[Chris W]

Feb 19, 2018 20:06:38 GMT Ben said:

Any news about the order option for additional units? This seemed to be a dead cert a while back - is it still likely?

This has already been mentioned on the forum a little while back that 4 additional cl345s will be built.

I am happy to be corrected if I dreamt this 😳

[Ben]

Feb 20, 2018 6:18:43 GMT Chris W said:

Feb 19, 2018 20:06:38 GMT Ben said:

Any news about the order option for additional units? This seemed to be a dead cert a while back - is it still likely?

This has already been mentioned on the forum a little while back that 4 additional cl345s will be built.

I am happy to be corrected if I dreamt this 😳

Really? I thought they were 7somethings, for the WANGLIA lines? Are there options for Crossrail stock too?

[snoggle]

Feb 20, 2018 9:45:29 GMT Ben said:

Feb 20, 2018 6:18:43 GMT Chris W said:

This has already been mentioned on the forum a little while back that 4 additional cl345s will be built.

I am happy to be corrected if I dreamt this 😳

Really? I thought they were 7somethings, for the WANGLIA lines? Are there options for Crossrail stock too?

There are options on both contracts.

TfL ordered extra 345s for the enhanced Heathrow / Reading services as announced last year. I think it's 6 extra trains. There are other contract options still open I believe.

TfL have also ordered extra 710s in differing lengths to cater for the Barking Riverside extension, enhanced Watford DC services and some 5 car units to displace 378s to support more frequent ELL services. We had a separate thread about this order where people eventually untangled the meaning of the rather opaque TfL Board Paper which didn't really set out the future rolling stock deployment very well at all. There are also further contract options on the 710 contract but given TfL's finances I expect they will lapse long before TfL is able to use them. The only small saving grace is that there are very large orders for Aventras stretching several years hence so the production line and jigs will be extant for a long while yet.

[blackhorsesteve]

Not wishing to take this off-topic but I see c2c are ordering new trains that look *very* similar to the 345s based on the artist's impression, are they likely to be 345s or a very similar but different classification?

www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/britains-c2c-franchise-orders-aventra-trains.html

[jswallow]

They're all based on the Aventra platform. They'll likely have a different class number (as all the other orders for them so far have had different class numbers - 710 for LO, and planned as 701 for South Western Railway, 720 for Greater Anglia). c2c and West Midlands Aventras haven't been allocated a class yet.

[domh245]

The c2c Aventras are going to be far more like the Greater Anglia Aventras than the 345s - 24m long coaches with 2 doors per coach and a top speed of 100mph.

[silenthunter]

Feb 20, 2018 18:31:34 GMT domh245 said:

The c2c Aventras are going to be far more like the Greater Anglia Aventras than the 345s - 24m long coaches with 2 doors per coach and a top speed of 100mph.

And 10 coaches long, so 12 long in 'old money'. That said, until they actually up the line speed on the LTS line above 75mph, that 100mph capacity isn't of a huge amount of use.

[Ben]

Pity they will stick with only two pairs of doors though. Given the extra length per carriage that's a loss of four double doors per 240m train. Extra seats (perhaps), but a longer time to fully empty at Fenchurch Street. The PEP trailers had three double doors however the production mk3 based vehicles only had two; one wonders how the basic layout has managed to remain constant since since, despite patronage being unrecognisable now. [Not to mention A60/62 trailers, at 2/3 the length with 3/2 the doors!]


snoggle - that is the thread I had a vague recollection of, as well as the lengthy and detailed discussion on London Reconnections. The further options to the 710s were what I was thinking of (extra 4s plus the ability to lengthen some to 5 was it?), though given how intricate and confusing the details were (and the range of options) I may very well have crossed wires here.
The financial difficulties having a negative influence on extra options above and beyond those already set in stone (or concrete), are what I was curious about in my post before though. Pity. Its a bit worrying to know that nothing can be done even if loading gets completely out of control, but I suppose even if it did (which it likely won't), it couldn't anyway for a while (but now won't because of money issues).