|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 19, 2019 13:55:59 GMT
A notice at Richmond station says that as of yesterday four Overground services have been removed from the timetable or terminating short of their destination at Willesden. Is this to get more maintenance cover out of the fleet, or is there another reason?
|
|
|
|
Post by alpinejohn on Feb 19, 2019 18:37:23 GMT
Separating the "acceptance criteria" process, from the criteria needed to allow driver training, sort of makes sense as it may mean the 710s can be brought into passenger service more quickly.
Inherently it make no sense to pay drivers to sit on their hands. Presumably TFL (Arriva Rail London) already have enough drivers to operate the normal complement of 8 trains on GOBLIN with a few extra spare drivers available to cover for illness, training, holidays etc.
However the compliment of available trains has already dropped to 6 and within a month will be down to 3 trains. So the remaining GOBLIN drivers might as well start getting acquainted with the 710s and the related stopping points and braking rates needed by the new units along the Goblin route. OK this assumes Bombardier have finally figured out how to stop them having hissy fits and dropping the pantograph when the overhead voltage climbs much beyond the norm and are not going to inflict carnage on both passenger and freight services. Whilst it might be infuriating for passengers to see 710s routinely trundling along the route carrying boxes of fresh air, if this speeds up their final introduction into service then I guess it is something passengers will have no option but to live with.
|
|
|
|
Post by greatkingrat on Feb 19, 2019 20:47:04 GMT
A notice at Richmond station says that as of yesterday four Overground services have been removed from the timetable or terminating short of their destination at Willesden. Is this to get more maintenance cover out of the fleet, or is there another reason? The unit is being used for driver training runs (not 710 related). In the past it would be done with a spare unit, but now the only option is to take a unit out of service for a few hours in the middle of the day. |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Feb 22, 2019 0:22:19 GMT
A look at Real Time Trains shows that a 710 has been out and about on the WCML overnight running Wembley to Tring / Milton Keynes. One is heading north through NW London as I type this. Looks like Bombardier are trying again to achieve the fault free mileage target. No runs on the GOBLIN though in recent nights.
|
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Feb 22, 2019 20:39:04 GMT
Sorry for the messy image, but it was filmed through a very grubby train window
Simon
|
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Feb 22, 2019 21:43:48 GMT
I didn't find this myself - it was posted on another forum. Looks like there may be a small breakthrough with the class 710s. There are paths on a couple of evenings next week between Willesden Depot and Barking. The tweet below expands on what they may be for. Shame they're not in daylight hours. (EDIT - looks like the tweet was deleted rendering the above comment rather incomplete) |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Feb 26, 2019 22:34:49 GMT
Well the apparent driver training run with a class 710 has run this evening. It started a little late from Willesden but progressively made up time. I popped down to Blackhorse Road to see it. It was going so quickly that it completely deceived the platform announcer system that warned us to stand clear 1 minute *after* the train had zoomed past. They are incredibly quiet - it came zooming along but made literally no noise at all.
Looks like it is running in the 2236 ex Barking path - this is normally a passenger run but has been cancelled tonight leaving a 40 min gap between trains. The running schedule ex Barking suggests it will pause at each of the platforms but will presumably not release the doors in case real passengers try to get on!
|
|
|
|
Post by ashlar on Feb 26, 2019 23:04:52 GMT
Looking good!
How long does it normally take between the driver training stage and the trains entering service?
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,776
|
Post by Chris M on Feb 27, 2019 1:01:23 GMT
How long does it normally take between the driver training stage and the trains entering service? I suspect it depends on how many drivers need training, how much training they need (if they need to drive one on the full route that will take longer than than if they only have to do a sample of moves), how many drivers can be trained at once? etc. In this case I think driver training is happening in parallel with acceptance testing so it's likely a question of which finishes last that will determine the entry into service date. |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Feb 27, 2019 1:10:19 GMT
How long does it normally take between the driver training stage and the trains entering service? At this stage no one outside of the LOTRAIN project knows. If the trains are managing to accumulate sufficient fault free mileage to get past the contractual target then that's a big plus. There has been a lot of test runs on the WCML recently that seem to have passed without apparent issue. It was suggested that tonight's runs on the GOBLIN were driver training runs - I'll be honest and say I don't understand the running codes that apply to NR workings. It may have been a training run tonight or it may not - I just don't know. There have been multiple IDs in the system for some of these test runs. It seems the 710 got in and out of Gospel Oak platform without issue so that's a plus too. I have not picked up any new or recent comments about whether the 710s are genuinely heading towards a possible ORR sign off for passenger use. Getting through all the tests, data analysis, reliability runs and compiling a compliant submission for ORR sign off is no small tast and especially not on what is effectively a "step change" in software enabled train design. What no one has remarked on is the ability of ORR itself to tackle a sign off for such a step change in train design. It may find it has new challenges within its organisation to be able to effect the sign off. That's just me musing about possibilities so no one should panic. It would be nice to get some definitive comment from Bombardier and TfL about apparent progress but I'm not holding my breath. Only 2 weeks until the 172s go and the service halves.  |
|
|
|
Post by ashlar on Feb 27, 2019 23:09:02 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Feb 28, 2019 7:50:14 GMT
There was a class 172 (couldn't see number) in Ilford depot on Tuesday. Connected?
|
|
|
|
Post by goldenarrow on Feb 28, 2019 10:01:38 GMT
There was a class 172 (couldn't see number) in Ilford depot on Tuesday. Connected? Most likely it was one of the units taken off lease before heading for the Midlands. The 172’s are going no matter what state of readiness their permanent replacements are in. |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Feb 28, 2019 14:02:52 GMT
Woo and may I say Hoo. Never thought I'd see it happen but here is a class 710 out in daylight hours on a driver training run. There were quite a number of drivers on this run. Two actually alighted at Blackhorse Rd via the cab door which meant I got a tiny glimpse of the driver's seat. Judging from the discussion I overheard the train should be out tomorrow (Friday) as well. Several of the doors were shown as locked out of use and the destination display was wrong as was the next station indicator. So clearly not perfect but at least they are allowed out in normal traffic now. 
London Overground 710 261 Blackhorse Road by plcd1, on Flickr |
|
|
|
Post by goldenarrow on Feb 28, 2019 19:11:26 GMT
The unit that snoggle got on camera, 710 261 returned to Willesden TMD via the DC bay platform at Willesden Junction instead of Brent Sidings. |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Feb 28, 2019 20:36:47 GMT
The unit that snoggle got on camera, 710 261 returned to Willesden TMD via the DC bay platform at Willesden Junction instead of Brent Sidings. It also entered service that way - I've seen a photo. Seemingly the first time a 710 has been on DC power on Network Rail metals. |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Mar 2, 2019 12:09:52 GMT
The 710 test train workings are out today on Saturday. That's a surprise but a positive sign.
Looking at Monday's working timetable for the GOBLIN shows a doubling of test runs (from 2 to 4 round trips) on the line with afternoon and early evening return trips in operation. Seems there is a more determined effort to get drivers trained on the units now.
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Mar 2, 2019 16:38:53 GMT
The 710 test train workings are out today on Saturday. That's a surprise but a positive sign. Looking at Monday's working timetable for the GOBLIN shows a doubling of test runs (from 2 to 4 round trips) on the line with afternoon and early evening return trips in operation. Seems there is a more determined effort to get drivers trained on the units now. No doubt panicking with the impending loss of the 172s. |
|
|
|
Post by mcmaddog on Mar 2, 2019 17:13:57 GMT
The 710 test train workings are out today on Saturday. That's a surprise but a positive sign. Looking at Monday's working timetable for the GOBLIN shows a doubling of test runs (from 2 to 4 round trips) on the line with afternoon and early evening return trips in operation. Seems there is a more determined effort to get drivers trained on the units now. No doubt panicking with the impending loss of the 172s. There’s nothing like an immovable deadline to focus minds and efforts |
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,776
|
Post by Chris M on Mar 2, 2019 17:44:17 GMT
There’s nothing like an immovable deadline to focus minds and efforts I shall refrain from posting my immediate response to this to avoid breaking the forum rules about politics. |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Mar 2, 2019 19:42:34 GMT
The 710 test train workings are out today on Saturday. That's a surprise but a positive sign. Looking at Monday's working timetable for the GOBLIN shows a doubling of test runs (from 2 to 4 round trips) on the line with afternoon and early evening return trips in operation. Seems there is a more determined effort to get drivers trained on the units now. No doubt panicking with the impending loss of the 172s. Quite possibly but I simply can't see 170 drivers being trained, 8 trains achieving fault free mileage, Bombardier submitting reams of technical evidence and ORR saying "OK those 710s are super brilliant, let the passengers on them" in the next 13 days.   I'm a gloom merchant by nature but having a panic now is 6 months too late.  It's certainly good to see the trains out in daylight hours but I remain of the view that we're at least 8-10 weeks away from passenger service. It would be nice to be proved wrong but we shall see.  And then there is the ongoing slog of managing the 710s while in service and building reliabibilty PLUS getting the Watford Line trains into service PLUS the West Anglia fleet. That's a lot of fault free mileage runs per train plus a lot more test runs on routes they've not been on yet plus DC test runs etc etc. There is a heck of a lot of work for Bombardier and ARL (Arriva Rail London) for at least the next year and that assumes things go reasonably smoothly. And then there's the final batch of extra trains for the NLL/WLL. It should get easier as ARL and Bombardier build knowledge and experience. Alongside all of that Bombardier have to keep resourcing work on Crossrail, getting 345s more reliable plus all the batches of Aventras for other TOCs - Greater Anglia and SWR being ever more critical orders to get delivered and into service. I know I'm just stating the obvious but Bombardier have a lot to do. |
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Mar 2, 2019 22:05:06 GMT
ah but, surely to get out of the most desperate trouble only three trains are needed?
still a tall order, perhaps - but nevertheless far less steep than 8 trains!
|
|
|
|
Post by silenthunter on Mar 2, 2019 22:12:50 GMT
Yes, but if you have three trains and one gets badly broken...
|
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Mar 2, 2019 22:37:40 GMT
....you just have to hope it won't....!
|
|
|
|
Post by silenthunter on Mar 2, 2019 23:28:13 GMT
Hope is a town in Arkansas. It produced Bill Clinton.
|
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Mar 3, 2019 0:05:49 GMT
ah but, surely to get out of the most desperate trouble only three trains are needed? still a tall order, perhaps - but nevertheless far less steep than 8 trains! I'd argue you really need 4 to offer the chance of a vaguely stable service. ARL & Bombardier have to get to the point where they have some maintenance breathing space again. Running on zero or close to zero spare cover is, IMO, a mug's game. It's not sustainable for any great period of time. If we look at the class 345s, which have a supposedly more familiar / stable software, their reliability is poor and not really climbing very strongly. I know some of that is down to the way on board technicians investigate everything thus extending durations into recordable incidents but even so it isn't the most reassuring precedent. We have to assume the 710s will have the usual "bath tub curve" reliability issues. None of the testing to date has involved actually opening and closing doors at stations and doors are a huge cause of reportable faults / delays. I appreciate it's really hard on a live railway to do this when you don't want passengers boarding trains but they should try to find a way to at least do some limited testing of this. I expect TfL's priority will be to try to fill in peak gaps with 710s (once approved for use) even if it means 710s only do a few passenger carrying trips per day initially. It's clear from the most recent PR announcements about the 378s that peak capacity is what they're concerned with. I do wonder if we'll end up with the bizarre scenario of 710s running in the "empty" service paths after March 15th to build up driving training hours but with the trains not being able to carry passengers. "Oh look 4 trains an hour but you only actually get on half of them".   |
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286 
|
Post by rincew1nd on Mar 4, 2019 15:34:46 GMT
Richard Clinnick tweets:
|
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Mar 4, 2019 16:15:53 GMT
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,776
|
Post by Chris M on Mar 4, 2019 19:48:13 GMT
I think this means that the 23:38 Barking to Gospel Oak on Sunday 17th (possibly the 23:38 Barking to Gospel Oak) will be TfL's last ever diesel passenger train.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tomcakes on Mar 4, 2019 22:43:48 GMT
Was the first TfL (incl predecessors) diesel passenger train those which ran when the Goblin was first taken over?
Some of the alternatives suggested are interesting - a W7 bus from Crouch Hill station at peak hours will not stop to pick up!
Does a very blatant mismanagement and provision of half the service count enough to admit to 'severe delays'?
|
|
I'm a gloom merchant by nature but having a panic now is 6 months too late. 
It's certainly good to see the trains out in daylight hours but I remain of the view that we're at least 8-10 weeks away from passenger service. It would be nice to be proved wrong but we shall see. 
