First 8-car Circle line working?

[jimbo]

Underground News tells us that on Thurs 10 October the Circle line train from Neasden Depot was formed of the S7+1, and was 'taken out of service at Moorgate bay platforms'. Since this train works empty to Baker Street, I presume it worked passenger from there to Moorgate and thus became the first 8-car Circle working. How did the error come to light?

[Colin]

It was brought to the attention of Met service control at Kings Cross on the eastbound.

I would suggest it was brought from Neasden to Baker Street by a Met train op and then handed over to a H&C/Circle train op who raised the issue when they became aware of it.

It was put down to a misallocation by Neasden depot.

To be fair, the train in question was formed of units 21323/24 which on the face of it are S7 unit numbers. However units 21323/24 make up the S7+1 that's now a permanent Met line S8!

[Chris M]

Had this not been realised in time to route the train to Moorgate bay roads what would have been the options? Obviously the train will fit in all the platforms to Liverpool Street and in the bay roads at Aldgate (are C&H operators trained for them?) would it fit in (and is it clear for) the through roads there?

As for preventing the issue happening again, maybe the simplest option would be to place a "Metropolitan line" or "S7+1" sticker in each cab somewhere a t/op will see it when taking over the train.

[goldenarrow]

Fairly sure there are S7 stopping marks for stabling in the bay platforms at Aldgate. There is also an S8 diamond for the Outer Rail Circle Line platform over the trap points.

[John Tuthill]

Dec 17, 2019 14:26:15 GMT Chris M said:

Had this not been realised in time to route the train to Moorgate bay roads what would have been the options? Obviously the train will fit in all the platforms to Liverpool Street and in the bay roads at Aldgate (are C&H operators trained for them?) would it fit in (and is it clear for) the through roads there?

As for preventing the issue happening again, maybe the simplest option would be to place a "Metropolitan line" or "S7+1" sticker in each cab somewhere a t/op will see it when taking over the train.

That's too simple

[jimbo]

I believe that S8 (and S7+1!) can work via Liverpool St to Upminster and Ealing Depots, but not in passenger service!

[MoreToJack]

Not sure on Upminster, but yes for Ealing Common.

S8s have covered pretty much the entirety of the SSR network - I’m not sure about east of Whitechapel, and they definitely haven’t been to Hammersmith (too long). They have also been to Northfields depot and to Rayners Lane via North Ealing.

[Deleted]

Upminster is nice and big but when the A stock was going to Upminster they was only capable of of running a 4 car so perhaps the overlaps on the signalling cant accommodate a 8 car train, who knows

[graeme186]

Presumably consideration was given to re-numbering this Unit 21117/118 or other alternative to better distinguish it from the S7 number range but not progressed for some reason?

[t697]

Dec 17, 2019 20:13:45 GMT MoreToJack said:

Not sure on Upminster, but yes for Ealing Common.

S8s have covered pretty much the entirety of the SSR network - I’m not sure about east of Whitechapel, and they definitely haven’t been to Hammersmith (too long). They have also been to Northfields depot and to Rayners Lane via North Ealing.

S8 permitted to Upminster as empty stock as alternative wheel turning facility.
The trip to Rayners and back via North Ealing was with an S7. Clearance proving in case any had to be moved that way for taking to Ruislip and Derby for ATC fitting after SMA2 precluded non fitted train going via Baker St.  In the actuality of course all trains had completed their Derby trips well before SMA2.

[MoreToJack]

An S8 has been to Rayners via North Ealing. I was very specific with my wording.

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2019 21:00:19 GMT MoreToJack said:

An S8 has been to Rayners via North Ealing. I was very specific with my wording.

Hopefully not in traffic hours as there is a concern from some that the signalling is not compatible west of North Ealing, hence the plungers at Hanger Lane Junction for anything except a 73 stock

[MoreToJack]

Yep, overnight, one-way stock move. That one was in part to test what was needed for the S stock ITMP (Incompatible Train Movements Procedure).

[philthetube]

I imagine that the mistake would be realised when the train stopped at an S7 stopping mark and the doors failed to open.

[jimbo]

Dec 18, 2019 3:17:23 GMT philthetube said:

I imagine that the mistake would be realised when the train stopped at an S7 stopping mark and the doors failed to open.

Good point. I presume Baker St. platform 3 is common stopping point, so where is the first separate S7 stop mark east of there? Reported at Kings Cross so is that it? The presumption is still that it picked up passengers, so is that confirmed?

[Chris M]

I think most stations have common stopping marks for S7 and S8, including King's Cross (it's certainly a common stopping mark on the westbound) as this means you only need one set of equipment to detect the position of the cab, etc.

[goldenarrow]

Dec 18, 2019 9:48:58 GMT jimbo said:

Dec 18, 2019 3:17:23 GMT philthetube said:

I imagine that the mistake would be realised when the train stopped at an S7 stopping mark and the doors failed to open.

Good point. I presume Baker St. platform 3 is common stopping point, so where is the first separate S7 stop mark east of there? Reported at Kings Cross so is that it? The presumption is still that it picked up passengers, so is that confirmed?

Euston Square and the bay platforms at Moorgate and Aldgate are the only location on the combined EB section with separate stopping marks.

WB locations with separate stopping marks are Moorgate, Barbican and King’s X.

[castlebar]

Here's an idea: > > >

Is there a prize for this if adopted?

8 car units have numbers commencing with 8

7 car units have numbers commencing with 7

Or does this overcomplicate things?

This way, if somebody takes over a train at Baker Street, there will be a big clue before he drives away!


IF l ran a firm of "consultants". l think TfL would pay a £Million quid for this, but unfortunately l'm sure that they'll say they've considered it and the present system works better

[John Tuthill]

Dec 18, 2019 16:29:57 GMT castlebar said:

Here's an idea: > > >

Is there a prize for this if adopted?

8 car units have numbers commencing with 8

7 car units have numbers commencing with 7

Or does this overcomplicate things?

This way, if somebody takes over a train at Baker Street, there will be a big clue before he drives away!


IF l ran a firm of "consultants". l think TfL would pay a £Million quid for this, but unfortunately l'm sure that they'll say they've considered it and the present system works better

That way they don't appear "stupid" having all the ologies to sit in judgement of the very people who know the systems better than they do.

[Deleted]

Too simple

[johnb2]

I would suspect that the train op who picked up the train at Baker St would not have been aware that it was the S7+1 until it stopped at the S8 marker at Euston Square. As it could run that route quite legitimately as a Met train the system must be able to differentiate between 7 and 8 car trains. So at that point the op must have thought "Oops! It shouldn't have done that!" Then reported it and it got terminated as soon as possible.

[jimbo]

Just like the first Jubilee line 7-car train which went into service from Neasden depot without trouble until it arrived at Westminster where there were problems with the platform edge doors! This was around a week before the official change-over from 6-car to 7-car! I believe after that they put a big sticker on the end of each 7-car train!

[underover]

Dec 18, 2019 16:29:57 GMT castlebar said:

Here's an idea: > > >

Is there a prize for this if adopted?

8 car units have numbers commencing with 8

7 car units have numbers commencing with 7

Or does this overcomplicate things?

This way, if somebody takes over a train at Baker Street, there will be a big clue before he drives away!


IF l ran a firm of "consultants". l think TfL would pay a £Million quid for this, but unfortunately l'm sure that they'll say they've considered it and the present system works better

Look at how long the s stock have been running in total, before they had this happen? Changing car numbers would not help in this case at all as if you are in the cab, you are unlikely to look at the car number (admittedly it is written down in the cab, but its out of view iirc.

[norbitonflyer]

Dec 18, 2019 21:11:03 GMT underover said:

This way, if somebody takes over a train at Baker Street, there will be a big clue before he drives away!


Changing car numbers would not help in this case at all as if you are in the cab, you are unlikely to look at the car number (admittedly it is written down in the cab, but its out of view iirc.

But the initial error was not the train op's but whoever allocated that unit to that duty. What was the TOp to do when presented with a train that was'nt suited to the task?

[Chris M]

Hence my idea for a prominent sticker in the cab, so that if the depot sends it out again it will be easy to spot.

[Ben]

In the days when 8 car trains ran on the District, were there any moves or unscheduled diversions of 8 cars between the Met and District via Aldgate? I suppose one would have to go through the back catalogue of UN to stand even a slim chance of finding out!

[philthetube]

Dec 18, 2019 21:24:43 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Dec 18, 2019 21:11:03 GMT underover said:

This way, if somebody takes over a train at Baker Street, there will be a big clue before he drives away!


Changing car numbers would not help in this case at all as if you are in the cab, you are unlikely to look at the car number (admittedly it is written down in the cab, but its out of view iirc.

But the initial error was not the train op's but whoever allocated that unit to that duty. What was the TOp to do when presented with a train that was'nt suited to the task?

The train op bringing the train out of Neasden would know what it was going to be used for and should notice the problem.

I once ended up with an eight car on the Chesham shuttle, a very peculiar set of workings had a driver bring the train out of Ricky sidings who was then relieved on the platform and the train went empty to Chesham, only on walking the length of the platform at Chesham did I realise.

[brigham]

Middlesbrough Corporation buses had a white steering wheel if they were able to pass under Albert Bridge (NER).
I suppose S8 stock could be so fitted...
Oh! Hang on...

[piccboy]

Surprised Driver(s) didn't notice 8 cars instead of 7 displayed on the TCMS (Train Control Management Screen).

[Chris M]

Dec 19, 2019 14:01:32 GMT piccboy said:

Surprised Driver(s) didn't notice 8 cars instead of 7 displayed on the TCMS (Train Control Management Screen).

Given that every train a C&H operator drives is 7 cars, it seems unlikely they would have any reason to pay attention to that part of the TCMS during normal operations. See the video below for an example of how selective attention can work.