Last original lift installations

[wanstead]

Another of my lockdown purchases has been three volumes of London's Underground by John Glover. There is a section regarding station lifts, and the 10th edition mentions that some of the early Otis lifts lasted into the 1990s at quiet stations. This begs the question, when was the last old lift taken out of service, would have been when Aldwych closed in September 1994? 

Also, were Aldwych and Mornington Crescent the last stations to have these Edwardian lifts still in use? 

[spsmiler]

Are these the lifts which a member of staff actually 'drove' manually? Oh and also had hand operated (what I think are called) Bostwick gates inside the lift?

These were at Aldwych, shortly before the station closed I went there with my camcorder and filmed one of them in action.

[brigham]

I seem to remember power-operated Bostwick gates, although possibly elsewhere than on LU.

[caravelle]

You are correct:

[revupminster]

Wapping's old lifts were operated by the ticket collector inside the lift and was unusual in that the lift operator had to stop the lift on the correct mark. Most lifts the operator only started the lift and it stopped itself. I as a 12 year old would be allowed to work the lift with the ticket collectors hand over mine. I sure the Bostwick gate were electrically operated.

My father was the station foreman at Wapping and was not supposed to use the lift but only the stairs in case the ticket collector overshot the mark and he would have to go to the lift room on the roof (there was a good view of the Thames from up there) and hand wind the lift by operating two huge circuit breakers inching the lift to it's correct position. There was a paint mark on the lift cable to align with a mark on the drum.

Wapping was a funny station in the sixties; the ticket office safe was stolen by digging it out of the wall from the rear alley it poked out into, goods trains thundered through shaking the whole station, drunks from the Prospect of Whitby sat on the platform dangling their legs over the edge and my father would try to make a radio work by attaching an aerial to a drainpipe in the foreman's office under the stairs; then I'd annoy the booking clerk when he had to write a child single privilege composite fare to Plaistow on a paper ticket. Probably the only paper ticket he would issue all week. Those were the days.

[crusty54]

This is probably a question that the late Mike Horne could have answered.

It is probably a case of working through the opening dates of the below ground stations. On another thread it was stated the Paddington Bakerloo had escalators from the start. Is that a clue?

Over the years I had to do the course several times to be able to take possession of lifts and escalators when doing maintenance work in their vicinity. We normally got taken into the machine chamber under the escalators at a station and only once got into a lift machine chamber and used the control panel. This was at Edgware Road.

This was the only time I got the X in the box for lift operation.

I'm now retired but I've still got that card somewhere.

[Deleted]

My files say -

Belsize Park lifts 1/2 'mothballed' pending removal (No.1) and replacement (No.2) on 05.12.87. Last of 'original' Otis lifts in service with lever-operated air-operated rear gates and hand-operated front gates. No Duplex Relays. Official 'removal' date 25.04.88.

Re Aldwych, although the lifts date back to 1907, the pair there were the prototypes for the "modernised Otis" lifts done in 1952-54 so even though they looked original, some of the control equipment wasn't. No.1 back in service 28.04.52, No.2 05.02.54.

[revupminster]

I lift trained at Edgware Road in 1974 where we all had a go at handwinding and the noise of the breakers was quite unnerving as we could not look at them in case we drew an arc so concentrated on the white mark on the cable.

[jimbo]

Apr 2, 2020 19:13:08 GMT wanstead said:

Another of my lockdown purchases has been three volumes of London's Underground by John Glover. There is a section regarding station lifts, and the 10th edition mentions that some of the early Otis lifts lasted into the 1990s at quiet stations. This begs the question, when was the last old lift taken out of service, would have been when Aldwych closed in September 1994? 

Also, were Aldwych and Mornington Crescent the last stations to have these Edwardian lifts still in use? 

Correct. See "Original London Underground Lift Stations" supplement to Underground News #567 of March 2009 by the late Jim Wright. Whilst busy stations had escalators replace their original lifts in the 1920s and 1930s, Mornington Crescent lifts remained in use in original condition until 20 Aug 1990, or 83 years! The Aldwych Otis lifts were modernised in 1952-4 and retired 30 Sept 1994. Both stations were unusual, in that tickets were issued by the liftman from a small kiosk.


The method of operation varied between stations. The original brass control domes would be worth a bit today! They had switches at top, bottom, and either side, but could be revolved to a diagonal position to lock these controls. The liftman checked tickets as passengers entered the lift and, where passengers exited at the rear of the car, there was an air-operated rear bostwick gate. Some stations also had landing lift controls to enable crowds to be managed between cars, rather than the liftman being within each car. Modernised lifts had new push-button controls within a lockable box, and often had laminate linings over the painted panels. At Covent Garden we had both modernised and un-modernised lifts in service to meet peak demands.


TfL now partially refurbish lifts every five years and completely replace them every 10 to 20 years, depending upon type (TfL Business Plan 2020/21 to 2024/25)!

[jimbo]

This reminded me of a conversation with LT's Lift & Escalator Engineer back some fifty years, when he was concerned about the operation of so many sixty year old lifts. Little did he know that some would have to work another twenty years. The Otis lifts incorporated many safety features. One which fascinated me was the ultimate hope if a lift car plunged down its shaft. Otis claimed that metal blades would spring from the shaft sides to engage in wooden bulks beneath the car, so breaking its fall. I was told that this could never be tested, and had never been required to operate since lift cables were replaced well before their guaranteed life. If a lift car was so stopped, it was unknown how it could be retrieved from its position. Anyway, this device depended on the detection of slack in the suspension cable, and a bigger worry was a rotting wooden floor dropping away from its car!

At Covent Garden all three Otis lifts would be worked from landing controls for the theatre rush at the end of the day. The modernised lift cars had a Bostwick gate which swept the full width, but the landings had solid wood doors with a very small window. There was a gap of a foot between the gate and the doors, and this was swept by a panel at right angles and towards the edge of each door. One evening a full lift was dispatched from the top station by the lift operator, and the outer doors closed. However, a man on the right side was struck by the Bostwick gate and, being unable to press into the car, stepped back to await the next trip. The gate closed and the lift immediately descended. Unfortunately, he found himself standing on the foot-wide landing looking down a 112-feet void, like standing on an eleventh-floor window ledge! Fortunately, he kept his nerve and awaited the return of the lift car, after which he let staff know his predicament in no uncertain terms!

Since the lift operated as designed, I presume the problem was put down to passenger action and this type of lift gave another twenty years of public service!

[tjw]

Apr 5, 2020 5:19:07 GMT jimbo said:

Otis claimed that metal blades would spring from the shaft sides to engage in wooden bulks beneath the car, so breaking its fall. I was told that this could never be tested, and had never been required to operate since lift cables were replaced well before their guaranteed life. If a lift car was so stopped, it was unknown how it could be retrieved from its position. Anyway, this device depended on the detection of slack in the suspension cable, and a bigger worry was a rotting wooden floor dropping away from its car!

Elisha Otis did make a claim and no one believed him, well until the 1853 New York World Fair when he demonstrated his safety Lift / brake. Yes he built a demonstration model, in the New York Crystal palace had it winched up with him in it and had someone cut the rope... Plenty of descriptions including the original patents, and youtube links can be quickly found via 'google' (other search engines available!) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisha_Otis

[alpinejohn]

Thanks for that excellent video link.

I think there may be elements of one of those early gated lifts complete with pre-recorded announcements and sound effects somewhere in the Covent Garden Transport Museum. It also reminded me that during a visit to the Acton Museum Depot I came across the remains of really ancient spiral Escalator. I guess that kit dated from a similar time-frame to those scary PaterNoster continuous lifts which were all the rage in Eastern Europe and developed a reputation for causing accidents.

I was not clear if the pile of rusty bits at the Depot Museum was ever installed anywhere on the tube, let alone made operational, but it did trigger one obvious question:

Are there still locations on the TFL network where normal lifts are struggling to handle normal passenger numbers but where there is no room for conventional straight escalators to be retrofitted, which may explain why someone was trying to devise a more compact curved/spiral escalator which might fit?

LUL are at least willing to try new technology to solve practical problems like installing inclined lifts. A while back I recall seeing several Mitsubishi curved escalators were operating reliably during a visit in Las Vegas.



As the Japanese seem to have finally figured out how to make reliable curved escalators I wonder if there are still locations on the tube where the ability to retrofit an escalator along a curved route to perhaps avoid disturbing load bearing or other below ground structures would actually be a great solution.

[tjw]

Note the curve on the those escalators... I am sure the radii of the lift shafts is much smaller.

[Chris M]

Apr 6, 2020 11:32:17 GMT alpinejohn said:

It also reminded me that during a visit to the Acton Museum Depot I came across the remains of really ancient spiral Escalator. I guess that kit dated from a similar time-frame to those scary PaterNoster continuous lifts which were all the rage in Eastern Europe and developed a reputation for causing accidents.

I was not clear if the pile of rusty bits at the Depot Museum was ever installed anywhere on the tube, let alone made operational, but it did trigger one obvious question:

The spiral escalator was installed at Holloway Road, but there is no evidence it was ever operational.
blog.ltmuseum.co.uk/2018/08/02/spiral-escalator/
londonist.com/london/transport/the-spiral-escalator-of-holloway-road

There is an old thread on the subject here: districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/2596/reno-circular-escalator

[rincew1nd]

Apr 6, 2020 11:32:17 GMT alpinejohn said:

I guess that kit dated from a similar time-frame to those scary PaterNoster continuous lifts which were all the rage in Eastern Europe and developed a reputation for causing accidents.

A paternoster appeared on my Twitter the other day, and I remembered Tom Scott's video about one. For those unfamiliar with the concept, have a watch:

[croxleyn]

In the 90's I used a Paternoster daily at GEC Borehamwood. As a joke for newcomers, an old hand would loop the top, doing a handstand to make it seem the whole cabin rotated!

The mechanics are extremely simple: in the video the rim of one chainwheel can be seen in the loft, and the front top right corner of the cabin is fixed to one link-pin of that chain. There's a second chainwheel offset to the rear (one cabin's height below), where a second link-pin is attached to the diagonally opposite cabin corner. Two further chainwheels sit in the sump, plus a motor. That's it!

[spsmiler]

I liked that Paternoster lift film, especially because the camera was left in at the top. I've never travelled in one, but I have been inside a lift that did not have an internal door in the lift cage - which meant that it was possible to touch the lift shaft whilst travelling. Not that I was ever tempted - since it would be a really stupid and potentially dangerous thing to do.

But I have filmed and been on curved escalators - this was in San Francisco in 1999. This film includes rides down (near the start) and up (near the end).

[countryman]

My daughter spent an academic year in the University of Neuchatel. She had a room on the 14th floor hich was served by a lift with no internal doors. Good fun until the day i went to bring her back. The lift broke down in the evening and we had to walk up and down the stairs to bring all of her stuff down. And she had a lot of stuff!

[superteacher]

Apr 6, 2020 13:36:46 GMT Chris M said:

Apr 6, 2020 11:32:17 GMT alpinejohn said:

It also reminded me that during a visit to the Acton Museum Depot I came across the remains of really ancient spiral Escalator. I guess that kit dated from a similar time-frame to those scary PaterNoster continuous lifts which were all the rage in Eastern Europe and developed a reputation for causing accidents.

I was not clear if the pile of rusty bits at the Depot Museum was ever installed anywhere on the tube, let alone made operational, but it did trigger one obvious question:

The spiral escalator was installed at Holloway Road, but there is no evidence it was ever operational.
blog.ltmuseum.co.uk/2018/08/02/spiral-escalator/
londonist.com/london/transport/the-spiral-escalator-of-holloway-road

There is an old thread on the subject here: districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/2596/reno-circular-escalator

Thanks Chris M for locating the above thread. I've unlocked it and merged the other (recently created) thread with it. We can then keep this thread for discussion about lifts.

[londonstuff]

Apr 7, 2020 22:51:08 GMT spsmiler said:

I liked that Paternoster lift film, especially because the camera was left in at the top. I've never travelled in one, but I have been inside a lift that did not have an internal door in the lift cage - which meant that it was possible to touch the lift shaft whilst travelling. Not that I was ever tempted - since it would be a really stupid and potentially dangerous thing to do.

But I have filmed and been on curved escalators - this was in San Francisco in 1999. This film includes rides down (near the start) and up (near the end).

Ah I recognise that, it’s near where Nordstrom now is in Westfield on Market Street. I didn’t take a vid when I was there (this is someone else’s).