Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,776
|
Post by Chris M on Jul 7, 2020 10:27:57 GMT
[...] only someone very brave or very foolish would bet on the introduction of fully automatic trains on LU being "not that difficult" Or someone that works for Spacex? I thought landing rockets just like in Tintin was science fiction, but now we regularly (48 times so far) see a rocket 200ft high come in from orbit slowing down from over the speed of sound and land on a barge floating in the ocean. This is all automatic and has no human input. For these guys controlling trains travelling at a few miles an hour held by gravity to rails would be rather simple. The cost is the biggest problem... but I am sure we will see fully automatic trains... eventually! I'm not saying that we will never see fully automatic trains, I'm simply saying that introducing them will not be as easy as some people seem to think. Elon Musk's automated rockets are not comparable - they do not have to interact with anything other than the drone ship, have much higher margins of error (the largest rocket is 12.m wide or 3.7m diameter (I'm not sure which is the relevant dimension), the drone ships are 52m wide) and over the last 5 years have had 37 successful and 8 unsuccessful landings (82% success rate) and only operate during certain weather conditions. Automated trains need to interact with people, other trains, signals, platforms with millimetre tolerances, with essentially 100% success rate over literally millions of events in all weather conditions. |
|
|
|
Post by AndrewS on Jul 7, 2020 10:56:50 GMT
There was a plan to have trains drive themselves in and out of Northumberland Park depot but I'm told so far they not managed it without derailing themselves. "It would not be that difficult to make the trains driverless which in effect they already are". Yeah, right... from almost exactly a year ago tells of a DLR train that passed two red signals and then derailed on trap points in Beckton Depot. It is (or at least was at the time) rumoured to be a trial of full automatic working in the depot. If the DLR, which is a railway designed from the ground up for automatic working, can have those sorts of issues then only someone very brave or very foolish would bet on the introduction of fully automatic trains on LU being "not that difficult" It could be that the system used within the depot is more basic than on the "main" line. A bit like the old Post Office railway pre-visitor attraction status, the cost of signalling versus the cost of any incident including teh resulting damage and delays could be weighed up without having to take into account the possibility of death/injury, and the trap points did their job. I don't think the ability of the DLR system to run trains fully automatically is in question as it happens already; the real issues revolve around other matters such as where staff should most usefully be located to deal with problems, the need for platform edge doors or other human intervention based on the particular environment and so on. |
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 7, 2020 11:43:09 GMT
this thread from almost exactly a year ago tells of a DLR train that passed two red signals and then derailed on trap points in Beckton Depot. It is (or at least was at the time) rumoured to be a trial of full automatic working in the depot. If the DLR, which is a railway designed from the ground up for automatic working, can have those sorts of issues then only someone very brave or very foolish would bet on the introduction of fully automatic trains on LU being "not that difficult" It could be that the system used within the depot is more basic than on the "main" line. A bit like the old Post Office railway pre-visitor attraction status, the cost of signalling versus the cost of any incident including teh resulting damage and delays could be weighed up without having to take into account the possibility of death/injury, and the trap points did their job. I don't think the ability of the DLR system to run trains fully automatically is in question as it happens already; the real issues revolve around other matters such as where staff should most usefully be located to deal with problems, the need for platform edge doors or other human intervention based on the particular environment and so on. The real issues - indeed the only relevant issues - are safety and cost, anything else is like debating how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. As TfL have stated full automation would require Platform Edge Doors which means that driverless operation would not be possible on the Bakerloo and District (Network Rail shared with London Overground) or the Metropolitan (shared with Chiltern Railways). The cost of installing PEDs on other lines would be astronomical, would take years of engineering work with countless weekend closures or blockades for strengthening work and could only be achieved with the full co-operation of the unions as until the PEDs were installed the trains would have to be driver operated (as was the case with converting Paris M1). This is why the plans were abandoned in the first place. At a time when TfL are struggling to pay for Piccadilly signals upgrade and have no idea how they are going to pay for Crossrail 2 or the Bakerloo Line Extension/upgrade any suggestion that driverless trains are a possibility is laughable. |
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Jul 7, 2020 13:13:24 GMT
The Victoria Line has been driverless since the beginning. The train operator basically does the duties the guard used to do. He does not accelerate the train or brake it. There are no doors on the platform and if a potential suicide jumps in front of the train he can only push the emergency brake and the outcome would be marginally less.
Passengers stand on BR platforms with trains passing at 100mph and no one asks for platform doors. Nothing is risk free with moving objects.
Just to throw in something else my contact says the open stations are going to be left unmanned. They often were in my time on the District Line post 1993.
|
|
|
|
Post by humbug on Jul 7, 2020 13:55:23 GMT
There are a couple of interesting points here:
-I appreciate that the forum rules state that we are not supposed to discuss politics, however it is practically impossible to discuss the current news story of driverless trains without mention of it being a Tory leader battling a Labour mayor.
-Secondly, I've always thought that the most recent trains must be computer controlled at the very least - the Jubilee line in central London, where platform edge doors are in operation springs to mind. If this is the case, can you not make the leap to driverless versions of existing trains, using additional technology to ensure safety? It seems that the question here is the cost of doing so, which does not appear to have been adequately thought through.
Humbug
|
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Jul 7, 2020 13:57:26 GMT
The Victoria Line has been driverless since the beginning. The train operator basically does the duties the guard used to do. He does not accelerate the train or brake it. There are no doors on the platform and if a potential suicide jumps in front of the train he can only push the emergency brake and the outcome would be marginally less. Passengers stand on BR platforms with trains passing at 100mph and no one asks for platform doors. Nothing is risk free with moving objects. Just to throw in something else my contact says the open stations are going to be left unmanned. They often were in my time on the District Line post 1993. At the end of the day the platform edge doors requirement can be dropped if those with decision-making ability decide, so I don’t think that necessarily guarantees driverless won’t happen. However the DLR really isn’t quite the shining example that it’s made out to be. They’ve had a few nasty incidents over the years, including where the lack of someone at the front of the train made a material difference to the outcome. I’ve been on plenty of DLR trains where the train captain ends up having to manipulate their way through a crowded train to reach the front, and then ends up perched awkwardly over someone’s feet or luggage whilst carrying out a safety-critical task. They have the benefit of being largely open-air and all their tunnels have a side walkway. And of course the moment you have someone on the train, whatever their exact job description is, you’re straight into the territory of duty schedules, rosters and the like, which is one of the main benefits of getting staff off the train entirely. |
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 7, 2020 17:44:08 GMT
The Victoria Line has been driverless since the beginning. The train operator basically does the duties the guard used to do. He does not accelerate the train or brake it. There are no doors on the platform and if a potential suicide jumps in front of the train he can only push the emergency brake and the outcome would be marginally less. Passengers stand on BR platforms with trains passing at 100mph and no one asks for platform doors. Nothing is risk free with moving objects. Just to throw in something else my contact says the open stations are going to be left unmanned. They often were in my time on the District Line post 1993. The Victoria Line has never been driverless, they have always had a driver in the cab observing the track ahead Victoria Line TOps have to meet the same standard as TOps on every other line, they have to be able to deal with faults, know the procedures required for a given situation and they have to be able to drive the train manually when required. If someone jumps in front of a train it makes absolutely no difference whether you are in auto or manual, the emergency brake will take just as long to stop the train. The obvious difference between mainline platforms with trains passing at 100mph is that they are rarely if ever as crowded as the Tube |
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Jul 7, 2020 20:23:26 GMT
The Victoria Line has been driverless since the beginning. The train operator basically does the duties the guard used to do. He does not accelerate the train or brake it. There are no doors on the platform and if a potential suicide jumps in front of the train he can only push the emergency brake and the outcome would be marginally less. Passengers stand on BR platforms with trains passing at 100mph and no one asks for platform doors. Nothing is risk free with moving objects. Just to throw in something else my contact says the open stations are going to be left unmanned. They often were in my time on the District Line post 1993. The Victoria Line has never been driverless, they have always had a driver in the cab observing the track ahead Victoria Line TOps have to meet the same standard as TOps on every other line, they have to be able to deal with faults, know the procedures required for a given situation and they have to be able to drive the train manually when required. If someone jumps in front of a train it makes absolutely no difference whether you are in auto or manual, the emergency brake will take just as long to stop the train. The obvious difference between mainline platforms with trains passing at 100mph is that they are rarely if ever as crowded as the Tube As you rightly say the driver’s role is more about applying procedures, safety management and fault finding than physically moving the train from A to B. We may all understand that, however evidently Boris doesn’t. I’ve said before that I don’t believe driverless trains are worthwhile - it’s taken 50 years to get to where we are with attended ATO, and even that’s by no means perfect. But as I’ve also said I fully expect the political powers that be to have some go at attempting it. I don’t think it’s something for perhaps all but the very youngest drivers to need to worry too much about. |
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,747 
|
Post by class411 on Jul 7, 2020 20:41:41 GMT
The Victoria Line has never been driverless, they have always had a driver in the cab observing the track ahead Victoria Line TOps have to meet the same standard as TOps on every other line, they have to be able to deal with faults, know the procedures required for a given situation and they have to be able to drive the train manually when required. If someone jumps in front of a train it makes absolutely no difference whether you are in auto or manual, the emergency brake will take just as long to stop the train. The obvious difference between mainline platforms with trains passing at 100mph is that they are rarely if ever as crowded as the Tube As you rightly say the driver’s role is more about applying procedures, safety management and fault finding than physically moving the train from A to B. We may all understand that, however evidently Boris doesn’t. I’ve said before that I don’t believe driverless trains are worthwhile - it’s taken 50 years to get to where we are with attended ATO, and even that’s by no means perfect. But as I’ve also said I fully expect the political powers that be to have some go at attempting it. I don’t think it’s something for perhaps all but the very youngest drivers to need to worry too much about. I hope I'm not getting too close to politics with the following, but, pragmatically, it's surely true: The politicians who would wish to push for driverless trains (to reduce the power of the unions) are exactly the same politicians who hate to spend money on public projects. It's fairly clear that tfl will not be able to afford a (virtually) pointless project such as this for decades - if ever. What are the chances that the above-mentioned politicians would be happy to shell out several hundred millions (actually, probably billions) of public money on it. |
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Jul 7, 2020 20:57:38 GMT
As you rightly say the driver’s role is more about applying procedures, safety management and fault finding than physically moving the train from A to B. We may all understand that, however evidently Boris doesn’t. I’ve said before that I don’t believe driverless trains are worthwhile - it’s taken 50 years to get to where we are with attended ATO, and even that’s by no means perfect. But as I’ve also said I fully expect the political powers that be to have some go at attempting it. I don’t think it’s something for perhaps all but the very youngest drivers to need to worry too much about. I hope I'm not getting too close to politics with the following, but, pragmatically, it's surely true: The politicians who would wish to push for driverless trains (to reduce the power of the unions) are exactly the same politicians who hate to spend money on public projects. It's fairly clear that tfl will not be able to afford a (virtually) pointless project such as this for decades - if ever. What are the chances that the above-mentioned politicians would be happy to shell out several hundred millions (actually, probably billions) of public money on it - whatever the prime minister says. Another issue is that such projects have such a long lead-time that they outlive the lifespan of any politician by many years. SSR resignalling is an extreme example, which has spanned three mayors (and more if you measure it by mayoral terms!) and five prime ministers. As for LU managing directors, I think we’ve all lost count of how many of them there have been in that timespan... Boris is the sort of politician who seems to be prepared to have a go on a whim though, which is presumably why we have a relatively small fleet of Boris Buses floating round. |
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Jul 8, 2020 0:39:14 GMT
Remember, at the launch of the NTfL Kings Cross exhibition, Boris pledged that no current train drivers need be concerned if they were willing to be flexible! Also, to reassure public concerns, there will always be a member of staff on all trains, if not a driver. As mentioned above, this eliminates most of the cost saving from the capital investment, requires staff rostering and management, and will continue union leverage.
|
|
|
|
Post by Westinghouse on Jul 8, 2020 7:13:09 GMT
Call me cynical, but over here on the Bakerloo line that time forgot, the notion of driverless trains anytime soon is a bit of a running joke. So far we have been waiting 5 years for cup holders in the cab, 2 years for our fancy new LED headlights, the new dot matrix and digital announcer is delayed indefinitely but we did get shiny new LED's in the signals recently. Everyone at the depot is not particularly concerned for the foreseeable future.  |
|
|
|
Post by t697 on Jul 8, 2020 10:18:10 GMT
Call me cynical, but over here on the Bakerloo line that time forgot, the notion of driverless trains anytime soon is a bit of a running joke. So far we have been waiting 5 years for cup holders in the cab, 2 years for our fancy new LED headlights, the new dot matrix and digital announcer is delayed indefinitely but we did get shiny new LED's in the signals recently. Everyone at the depot is not particularly concerned for the foreseeable future. Aha, Boris wants to save the cost of fitting cup holders! |
|
|
|
Post by humbug on Jul 8, 2020 12:23:02 GMT
On the trains that I build*, there is a sloping surface built into the master controller ** surround; when I asked what it was for, it was apparently to stop drivers putting their cups of tea there, and liquids dropping into the mechanism. There is a cup holder la few inches away.
* Much as I pretend to, I don't actually build them myself, just buy parts for the factory
** the drivers speed / brake control, in case anyone was wondering
Sorry, back on topic :-)
|
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Jul 8, 2020 12:49:49 GMT
There does seem to be a lot of vested interests saying what drivers do and are indispensable but where were the drivers when the guards, who were emergency drivers, were being abolished. They wanted the money. I was depot clerk at Parsons Green up until one man operation was introduced. We had 100 drivers and about 120 guards. Managements attitude in those days was not to upset the drivers; they could do what they like. Where does the current driver move for promotion without taking a pay cut. Some used to become yardmasters via station inspectors, or controllers. Is there a career path now beyond driver that always used to be there?
Another thing about the yardmasters at Parson Green they were also in charge of the station and dealt with public questions. One of which had me going along the track to remove a pair of trousers snagged on a bush from the embankment because she was selling her house and the trousers was putting off buyers. Those were the days.
|
|
|
|
Post by alpinejohn on Jul 8, 2020 17:54:54 GMT
Sorry I have no desire to add to the political dynamic in this thread.
But as a passenger my only real concern is that going forward TFL do endeavour to purchase rolling stock which is less likely to get involved in an accident.
Over time it has become abundantly clear that computers are now amazingly good at doing boring repetitive stuff - indeed far better than us humans who, to be honest, do make mistakes from time to time.
You only need to see all those car crash video programmes on TV to realise just how bad some people are at simple tasks like obeying speed limits or red lights. I doubt many of them actually set out with the express intention of appearing on Car Crash TV but the fact that people mess up, really does make the idea of letting a well programmed micro chip take over virtually all routine train operations seem quite attractive.
The latest RAIB update on the recent "near miss" on the Chiltern line shows how even a well trained "professional" can make mistakes.
If Boris is really saying they are ready to give TFL unlimited funds to go out and replace all their rolling stock, then surely it is time to call their bluff and send him a bill to replace the entire TFL/LU fleet.
Please, please, please give London more fully automated trains just like the Victoria line, BUT please ensure that there is also someone sitting up front able to react to stuff which no amount of computer control can prevent - like dozy bankers falling onto the tracks whilst focused on their iThing or total idiots deciding to drill a piling shaft straight through a tunnel roof. That sounds like the best of both worlds for me as a mere commuter and if there is an offer of free money from Government then why not take it?
|
|
|
|
Post by nig on Jul 8, 2020 19:10:58 GMT
Please, please, please give London more fully automated trains just like the Victoria line, BUT please ensure that there is also someone sitting up front able to react to stuff which no amount of computer control can prevent - like dozy bankers falling onto the tracks whilst focused on their iThing or total idiots deciding to drill a piling shaft straight through a tunnel roof. That sounds like the best of both worlds for me as a mere commuter and if there is an offer of free money from Government then why not take it?
[/quote]
When you say more trains like Victoria line don't forget the central northern jubilee are already like that and soon so will be all the sub surface lines soon it's will just the Piccadilly and bakerloo lines that you have to manually drive
|
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Jul 8, 2020 20:12:43 GMT
Sorry I have no desire to add to the political dynamic in this thread. But as a passenger my only real concern is that going forward TFL do endeavour to purchase rolling stock which is less likely to get involved in an accident. Over time it has become abundantly clear that computers are now amazingly good at doing boring repetitive stuff - indeed far better than us humans who, to be honest, do make mistakes from time to time. You only need to see all those car crash video programmes on TV to realise just how bad some people are at simple tasks like obeying speed limits or red lights. I doubt many of them actually set out with the express intention of appearing on Car Crash TV but the fact that people mess up, really does make the idea of letting a well programmed micro chip take over virtually all routine train operations seem quite attractive. The latest RAIB update on the recent "near miss" on the Chiltern line shows how even a well trained "professional" can make mistakes. If Boris is really saying they are ready to give TFL unlimited funds to go out and replace all their rolling stock, then surely it is time to call their bluff and send him a bill to replace the entire TFL/LU fleet. Please, please, please give London more fully automated trains just like the Victoria line, BUT please ensure that there is also someone sitting up front able to react to stuff which no amount of computer control can prevent - like dozy bankers falling onto the tracks whilst focused on their iThing or total idiots deciding to drill a piling shaft straight through a tunnel roof. That sounds like the best of both worlds for me as a mere commuter and if there is an offer of free money from Government then why not take it? I don’t think the safety record of LU’s legacy signalling can really be criticised. We have to go back many years to find a case where something signalling-related has contributed to a serious outcome - I may be overlooking something however I think Holborn in the early 1980s is the most recent such incident, and that was more down to the signalling being to old standards. Most incidents since have been where procedures haven’t been followed correctly, and that could happen on an ATP railway just as easily. ATP does give a benefit in preventing overspeeding, but again LU has managed this risk well over the years. ATP particularly something like Seltrac transfers quite a bit of liability on to the signallers, such that you can have one well-worked signaller dealing with quite a lot during a failure. Indeed DLR controllers seem to have a very heavy workload when I’ve heard them in action during a failure. |
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Jul 8, 2020 20:33:39 GMT
Things take time! After the Victoria line opened with automatic trains in 1968, it was around 25 years until the next line saw them with resignalling for the 1992 stock on the Central line. In the meantime Unions initially agreed to operate the next new trains, the Circle line C69 stock, conventionally driven but without guards. However, when the Government requirements were defined the additional signalling required made the economics hard to justify, especially since a further reward was now required to get Union agreement. Another attempt simplified Government demands, and technology reduced implementation costs, so from 1984 to 2000 all lines became one person operated. The "Driverless Tubes by 1990" headline must refer to the Fully Automatic Train Project - FACT - which achieved a single train running one station to Hainault without passengers. Plans to convert the East London Line as a demonstration project, before the new Central line trains, were dropped. I presume the economics got in the way again! Does anyone know? So here we are 30 years on and the idea is raised again!
|
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Jul 8, 2020 22:22:41 GMT
Driverless trains have been proposed for the Waterloo & City Line, and would be cheap to implement. The stock is there already.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Jul 8, 2020 23:43:23 GMT
Boris is talking about the new Piccadilly line trains, which are designed in anticipation of driverless operation sometime in their 40 year life. Current Picc drivers can be reassured by looking at the selector switch in their current train cabs. There is an "Auto" position provided 45 years back in anticipation of resignalling, which is still to come! Those trains were expected to soon reverse in sidings such as at Barons Court and Wood Green without staff on board. They were designed for an electronic 'tripcock' to enable the air mains and pneumatic tripcocks to be removed. Money was never available for these advances! Perhaps the same could be true with the coming new generation of trains. If new Bakerloo trains are ever ordered, it is not anticipated that they will be driverless due to interworking north of Queen's Park and the short tunnel run, although that could change with an extension to Lewisham. New trains for the Central line and Waterloo & City line are even further away!
|
|
|
|
Post by philthetube on Jul 9, 2020 1:42:34 GMT
Driverless trains have been proposed for the Waterloo & City Line, and would be cheap to implement. The stock is there already. There is more to going driverless than just having the train driving itself, the train has to recognise what is preventing a door shutting, is it someone who is slow and elderly or is it a drink can, I needs to be able to trip and reset its own MCB's and other defects must be remotely manageable, current trains on the W&C don't have these abilities. |
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Jul 9, 2020 6:11:14 GMT
How does an elevator recognise what stops it's doors closing; it doesn't. Someone comes to look and with a train that could be platform staff, if any left or someone on the train. lets call them a Customer Assistant. Getting rid of guards, booking clerks, ticket collectors, railmmen, signal cabins was all about saving money. Some LT executive was in Tesco and heard the tannoy say "would till trained operatives make their way to the checkouts"; mulitfuctional that's a good idea. The guard was multifunctional! drive the train, close the doors, interact with the passengers protect the rear of the train. There's no mysticism to what a driver does.
|
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Jul 9, 2020 7:32:41 GMT
There's no mysticism about driverless trains, either.
Some major cities already have them, to some extent. Glasgow is about to introduce them.
Johnson is proposing for London nothing more than what already exists elsewhere.
He is being criticised for what he is, not what he wants.
|
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,747
|
Post by class411 on Jul 9, 2020 7:45:33 GMT
There's no mysticism about driverless trains, either. Some major cities already have them, to some extent. Glasgow is about to introduce them. Johnson is proposing for London nothing more than what already exists elsewhere. He is being criticised for what he is, not what he wants. That's a bit of a straw man argument. I don't think anyone has said that driver-less trains are impossible. Just that they would take so long to implement that it's pointless. The prime minister (or anyone else in public office who has virtually no idea what's involved) is just indulging in gesture politics by demanding the tfl 'agree' to driver-less trains with either: 1) No specified time-frame or 2) An unfeasibley short time frame. Just because other cities have driver-less trains does not mean that London can have them tomorrow. (Or even the next day.) |
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Jul 9, 2020 9:00:58 GMT
I don't think Boris is saying tomorrow; just the commitment. By the way what is the career path for a train operator. Is it direct recruitment, push buttons on the train for the next 47 years on the same line then retire. Where do the controllers, train crew managers (Yardmaster), instructors at the training centre come from.
|
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Jul 9, 2020 9:11:26 GMT
I don't think Boris is saying tomorrow; just the commitment. By the way what is the career path for a train operator. Is it direct recruitment, push buttons on the train for the next 47 years on the same line then retire. Where do the controllers, train crew managers (Yardmaster), instructors at the training centre come from. Many controllers at present come from a signalling background, particularly the cabins (many of whom originally start out as operational apprentices). Generally only a small proportion of controllers are ex train operator. Train crew managers come from a range of places, however again ex drivers don’t seem to dominate, although there are more here than in service control. It does seem to be the case that many train operators do the role on secondment (in many cases very well) and then don’t get through the recruitment process. |
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,747
|
Post by class411 on Jul 9, 2020 9:41:35 GMT
I don't think Boris is saying tomorrow; just the commitment. But if he's saying that, it's just meaningless, isn't it? Driver-less trains have been mooted for a very long time. I think it's reasonable to say that lu/tfl are in a meaningful way 'committed' to driver-less trains. They will happen when: TFL have a billion of so spare cash available. All the required technologies are available. All the systems, electronic, mechanical, and human, have been designed. All those technologies and systems have been prototyped, tested, and proved. All the relevant health and safety authorities have been satisfied. The working systems have been specified, the work tendered, contracts signed, final designs approved, hardware and software manufactured and everything implemented. True, some work has already been done, but a timescale for all the above is so vague as to be meaningless. The prime minister has said nothing substantive. |
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Jul 9, 2020 10:54:30 GMT
The Waterloo & City line could go very quickly but Aslef would threaten to strike the whole system. Where was Aslef when the guards (Mainly NUR (RMT)) were being got rid of.
All four points you query have been cleared. The DLR is an example Londoners and tourists have used since it's inception in ever increasing numbers with tunnel sections unmanned stations.
|
|
|
|
Post by philthetube on Jul 9, 2020 11:18:17 GMT
The Waterloo & City line could go very quickly but Aslef would threaten to strike the whole system. Where was Aslef when the guards (Mainly NUR (RMT)) were being got rid of. All four points you query have been cleared. The DLR is an example Londoners and tourists have used since it's inception in ever increasing numbers with tunnel sections unmanned stations. Tunnel sections with walkways, and the DLR does have a driver, just not in name. Worth noting that a lot of guards were ASLEF members, only train drivers and people doing jobs with a promotion line to train driver are accepted for membership, so, although I was not around at the time, I suspect that ASLEF looked at it realistically and saw that it was a fight that could not be won and so got the best possible deal for their members, including no compulsory redundancies ant a guarantee of the chance to become train operators as soon as situations arose. ASLEF are very different from the RMT, who are much keener to strike. |
|
