Boris demands TfL agree to Driverless Trains

[class411]

Jul 9, 2020 10:54:30 GMT revupminster said:

The Waterloo & City line could go very quickly ....

Quick, here, being a relative term. Just because a train can drive itself from one station to another on a point to point system, doesn't mean that you can simply remove the drivers and let it get on with it.

There would need to be robust and comprehensive systems in place for any and all exception conditions and emergencies:

Train fails?
Signalling system fails?
Tunnel fire?
Terrorist activity?

Of course, if you are talking about a 'driver-less' train that has a member of staff who can drive the train, but who sits outside the driving cab during the journey, that may be different matter, but, then again, that's only a driver-less train to someone very gullible.

Where was Aslef when the guards (Mainly NUR (RMT)) were being got rid of.

I'm completely at a loss as to what that has to do with the matter at hand.

All four points you query have been cleared. The DLR is an example Londoners and tourists have used since it's inception in ever increasing numbers with tunnel sections unmanned stations.

There were five points.

You are presumably ignoring "The working systems have been specified, the work tendered, contracts signed, final designs approved, hardware and software manufactured and everything implemented."

Don't forget that this has to happen for each line.

And just because a small, lightweight, system that was built from the ground up to operate semi-automatically (i.e. still has to have a member of staff who can drive the train present before it is allowed to operate), has been accomplished, it in no way means that the technologies, systems, permissions and equipment can be magically transferred to a system as large, complex, and just plain different, as the London Underground.

[cudsn15]

W&C & Vic lines are ripe for full automation if the funds are forthcoming. If it's depot access that is causing headaches you could keep a small retinue of pilots who just stable and launch trains to and from the depots.

With regard to train door issues (the bane of all train stock it seems) it would require a code in the programme to halt service and flash the carriage(s) with the offending problem for platform staff to deal with (Platform staff required at every station at all times! No staff then station closure perhaps?) then reset and go.

Nothing is insurmountable with the money and the will.

You could definitely run a more dynamic service introducing trains more on demand than by timetable. Eg running Vic trains every 90 seconds off peak is ridiculous.

[Deleted]

Driverless trains sounds like a nice idea, but there are more important things that the London mayoralty should spend their money on, like kickstarting the economy after the Coronavirus epidemic

[rincew1nd]

Jul 9, 2020 21:14:16 GMT @cymru said:

Driverless trains sounds like a nice idea, but there are more important things that the London mayoralty should spend their money on, like kickstarting the economy after the Coronavirus epidemic

This is a railway forum. We don't do politics. We definitely do not do economics!

[Chris M]

Jul 9, 2020 21:13:31 GMT cudsn15 said:

Nothing is insurmountable with the money and the will.

This is the key point: TfL don't have the money and unless central government is going to throw a lot of money at the issues (including recruiting and training significantly more station staff) whether anyone has the will is irrelevant. Given that the primary reason TfL don't have the money is that central government stopped funding TfL it seems unlikely that money will be forthcoming.

It is also worth nothing that if this money does suddenly appear in TfL's coffers, and they can't spend it on things that are more urgent and will give a greater return on investment (such as maintenance, step free access, fleet renewal, signalling upgrades, station upgrades, Bakerloo line extension, etc) then we can talk about the will.

However the primary motivation for the prime minister's statement is reported to be reducing the influence of the trade unions. Driverless trains will though require the same number of on-train staff as at present (i.e. no change to union influence) and/or more platform staff (who will be union members and more likely to be a member of a more militant union).

[North End]

Jul 9, 2020 23:29:40 GMT Chris M said:

Jul 9, 2020 21:13:31 GMT cudsn15 said:

Nothing is insurmountable with the money and the will.

This is the key point: TfL don't have the money and unless central government is going to throw a lot of money at the issues (including recruiting and training significantly more station staff) whether anyone has the will is irrelevant. Given that the primary reason TfL don't have the money is that central government stopped funding TfL it seems unlikely that money will be forthcoming.

It is also worth nothing that if this money does suddenly appear in TfL's coffers, and they can't spend it on things that are more urgent and will give a greater return on investment (such as maintenance, step free access, fleet renewal, signalling upgrades, station upgrades, Bakerloo line extension, etc) then we can talk about the will.

However the primary motivation for the prime minister's statement is reported to be reducing the influence of the trade unions. Driverless trains will though require the same number of on-train staff as at present (i.e. no change to union influence) and/or more platform staff (who will be union members and more likely to be a member of a more militant union).

The real reason is to rub the current Mayor’s face well and truly in it, especially with mayoral elections coming up. Sticking a spanner in the union works is a spin-off benefit, but I don’t think that’s the primary motivation. It’s all rather depressing.

[spsmiler]

Sorry but I have purposely avoided this thread.

I needed to stop laughing before saying anything, and even then I could have just searched for previous discussions on this topic and cut n' pasted.

Its like the flowers which I grow in the garden that then self-seed and keep on coming year after year. An old topic which rears its head every-so-often.

I'm not saying that it will not ever come to pass, but even with my partial knowledge (of what would be involved in making this possible) I know that whilst its easy to say, its not so easy to do. Much work involved - and money needed. Oh and whilst the general public might like the theme, the reality is that they actually do not understand the full implications of fully unstaffed trains.

[croxleyn]

All of the above comments could be made regarding closing ticket offices, at least in the suburbs. Money was spent blocking off the windows on the "public" side of the gateline: they're still needed on the Excess fares side. At Croxley this makes it unnecessarily difficult to attract the person's attention when they're working in the office and I need some assistance.

[Tom]

Jul 10, 2020 0:01:05 GMT North End said:

The real reason is to rub the current Mayor’s face well and truly in it, especially with mayoral elections coming up. Sticking a spanner in the union works is a spin-off benefit, but I don’t think that’s the primary motivation. It’s all rather depressing.

Sadly, I think you're right. The line to be taken will be "He's bankrupted TfL and can't deliver driverless trains, my candidate can!" despite the face that his candidate can't either, in the current financial climate.

It reminds me very much of a former Mayor's promise to break the unions and get a no-strike clause in contracts of employment, but his only success in that regard was to get all four LU unions to take part in joint strike action which hadn't happened since 1922.

[Tom]

Mod note:
This thread is about driverless trains, not about any of the Prime Minister's other attributes. Posts naming individuals or other observations about the personalities of the politicians involved may be considered in breach of Rule 3 and are liable to be moderated and/or removed.

[class411]

OK, leaving all politics aside, why would this be a problem for tfl or the mayor of London?

All they have to do is say: "Yes, we are committed to driver-less trains. In fact we are making good progress as we already have the majority of our lines using trains and signalling that allows the train to move from place to place under computer guidance."


I can't really see how this can be used as a stick to beat anyone. In fact it would likely rebound as tfl could quite honestly point out that progress towards this goal has been severely slowed by the removal of central government funding.

[Chris L]

The new commissioner has worked with unions to change operating practices.

It really comes down to safety and whether driverless operation could be signed off by the appropriate authorities.

[Dstock7080]

LUs MD Andy Lord gave a response to Staff:

I want to be clear there are no plans for driverless trains on the tube.

The coronavirus crisis has demonstrated the need for a fundamentally different long-term funding model for transport in London and we will be discussing the next stage of this with Government over the coming months. We face a very significant financial challenge, as a result in the huge drop in passenger numbers and with the resultant reduced revenue for the foreseeable future – we will need to look at how we can do things differently to keep operating our services for London as efficiently as possible. We are already having to make difficult decisions on investment in order to reduce our cost base as a direct result.

However, and to be very clear, none of our Tube lines would be able to operate without drivers without very considerable investment in signalling upgrades, new infrastructure, technology and new trains, not to mention regulatory changes.

Our train operator colleagues, along with our other teams, have worked tirelessly throughout the pandemic to keep critical workers moving around London and I am incredibly grateful and proud of their efforts. Our focus is now on recovery, getting our services safely back to pre-Covid levels especially at weekends and to secure the long term future for the organisation.

Thank you to everyone for what you do day in and day out.“

[Deleted]

I don't know and have never met Andy Lord, but I think that is quite heart warming.

[piccboy]

The issue of driverless trains is one that keeps returning and maybe it's time for tfl / LU to have a comprehensive answer to this. I would propose the Mayor of London asks for a sum of money from Central government in order to fully investigate and cost a driverless system being installed on all underground lines, and also the cost of installing a completely unstaffed train system. personally, I firmly believe the costs of either system in both financial and impacts to existing services whilst the works are carried out would be unpalatable to all save the most pedantic anti-unionist.

Or to put it into a slightly more political leaning statement, call Boris's bluff.

[Antje]

I would support keeping staff on trains and stations because of the Daegu subway fire. If a serious fire breaks out on a train, on-board staff directions could be a matter of life or death. I know about Sydney and their driverless Metro, but the Tube has a lot of small tunnels from the days when fire safety was not a big issue.

[revupminster]

^Don't have to go to Sydney for driverless trains and no platform doors; just to France and Lyon line D and soon Line B.

[Tom]

Jul 12, 2020 8:06:03 GMT class411 said:

All they have to do is say: "Yes, we are committed to driver-less trains. In fact we are making good progress as we already have the majority of our lines using trains and signalling that allows the train to move from place to place under computer guidance."


I can't really see how this can be used as a stick to beat anyone. In fact it would likely rebound as tfl could quite honestly point out that progress towards this goal has been severely slowed by the removal of central government funding.

The problem is that the detailed explanation doesn't generally interest voters. They see the media demonising tube drivers and the Prime Minister promising driverless trains, and they like what they're being promised. Who wouldn't, in the environment where 'striking tube drivers' have stopped you getting to work on time/at all?

The facts (such as the fact that the infrastructure isn't ready, or the trains are only being built with provision for subsequent conversion to unattended train operation) are not relevant; what is of importance politically is that the PM has promisted driverless trains.

In a year's time, one party will seek to remind people of his promise for driverless trains, together with the fact that the current mayor from the opposite party has not delivered on the PM's promise - regardless of whether or not it was ever in the Mayor's mandate to do so or if it was achievable in the timescale.

[North End]

Jul 12, 2020 22:53:07 GMT Tom said:

Jul 12, 2020 8:06:03 GMT class411 said:

All they have to do is say: "Yes, we are committed to driver-less trains. In fact we are making good progress as we already have the majority of our lines using trains and signalling that allows the train to move from place to place under computer guidance."


I can't really see how this can be used as a stick to beat anyone. In fact it would likely rebound as tfl could quite honestly point out that progress towards this goal has been severely slowed by the removal of central government funding.

The problem is that the detailed explanation doesn't generally interest voters. They see the media demonising tube drivers and the Prime Minister promising driverless trains, and they like what they're being promised. Who wouldn't, in the environment where 'striking tube drivers' have stopped you getting to work on time/at all?

The facts (such as the fact that the infrastructure isn't ready, or the trains are only being built with provision for subsequent conversion to unattended train operation) are not relevant; what is of importance politically is that the PM has promisted driverless trains.

In a year's time, one party will seek to remind people of his promise for driverless trains, together with the fact that the current mayor from the opposite party has not delivered on the PM's promise - regardless of whether or not it was ever in the Mayor's mandate to do so or if it was achievable in the timescale.

Sadly that analysis seems to be pretty much spot on. How depressing that in the midst of the worst crisis since WW2 the PM chooses to play political games.

It’s a shame there isn’t really anyone who can come out with “prime minister wants to get rid of 3,500 key workers who kept the country going through the Covid crisis”. Unpopular though Underground drivers may be, that still doesn’t read well against the current backdrop.

[revupminster]

Key worker is an emotive term not applicable to one grade such as driver as without the train cleaners, regulators, controllers, station staff they would not be key workers. it's all economics not politics. Everyone likes to think their job is indispensable as did the booking clerks, signalmen, guards, bank staff, post offices. shop workers. Covid 19 will drive change not maintain the status quo.

If we want to keep it emotive how many drivers in the course of their work have died compared to bus and taxi drivers.

[class411]

Jul 12, 2020 22:53:07 GMT Tom said:

Jul 12, 2020 8:06:03 GMT class411 said:

All they have to do is say: "Yes, we are committed to driver-less trains. In fact we are making good progress as we already have the majority of our lines using trains and signalling that allows the train to move from place to place under computer guidance."


I can't really see how this can be used as a stick to beat anyone. In fact it would likely rebound as tfl could quite honestly point out that progress towards this goal has been severely slowed by the removal of central government funding.

The problem is that the detailed explanation doesn't generally interest voters. They see the media demonising tube drivers and the Prime Minister promising driverless trains, and they like what they're being promised. Who wouldn't, in the environment where 'striking tube drivers' have stopped you getting to work on time/at all?

The facts (such as the fact that the infrastructure isn't ready, or the trains are only being built with provision for subsequent conversion to unattended train operation) are not relevant; what is of importance politically is that the PM has promisted driverless trains.

In a year's time, one party will seek to remind people of his promise for driverless trains, together with the fact that the current mayor from the opposite party has not delivered on the PM's promise - regardless of whether or not it was ever in the Mayor's mandate to do so or if it was achievable in the timescale.

You may well be right, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as the above suggests.

Rabid right wingers will obviously see it a the the mayor who failed, whereas rabid left wingers will see it as the PM.

The important question is, how will the swing voters - those who actually decide who we get for out MP's and councillors - see it.

If the mayor handles it properly he can say that they're committed to driver-less trains, they have the plans for driver-less trains, they are just waiting for the money from xxx who has been promising driver-less trains. Or do Londeners want to be saddled with massive cuts in other areas to pay for it.

Then he'd have the PM over a barrel.

[class411]

Jul 13, 2020 5:53:53 GMT revupminster said:

Key worker is an emotive term not applicable to one grade such as driver as without the train cleaners, regulators, controllers, station staff they would not be key workers.

Well, so what? Just because there are multiple groups of key workers doesn't mean that you can disregard any one simply on the basis that there are others.

it's all economics not politics. Everyone likes to think their job is indispensable as did the booking clerks, signalmen, guards, bank staff, post offices. shop workers.

Indeed, but all the jobs that have gone have gone when alternative provisions were in place.

They didn't get rid of all the gas lamp lighters and leave the streets in darkness while electric lights were installed.

They didn't sack the ticket office staff and let everyone travel free until ticket machines were installed.

And they can't get rid of the drivers and leave everyone walking while the massive amount of work needed to provide a safe and reliable automatic system is done.

[roythebus]

Jul 6, 2020 17:00:44 GMT Chris M said:

Johnson can insist as much as he likes, but unless he is prepared to put a massive amount of money where his mouth is then that's all he will be able to do. Even if he does choose to shake the magic money tree and all the unions give their full and enthusiastic cooperation and the HSE and ORR are completely happy with the physical infrastructure as it is (e.g. regarding PEDs) and Network Rail (and TOCs, etc) are happy with driverless trains running on/adjacent to their infrastructure it would be at least a couple of years before the first driverless train carries passengers on London Underground.

Don't driverless DLR trains run alongside NR trains already?

[Deleted]

Jul 13, 2020 11:58:05 GMT roythebus said:

Jul 6, 2020 17:00:44 GMT Chris M said:

Johnson can insist as much as he likes, but unless he is prepared to put a massive amount of money where his mouth is then that's all he will be able to do. Even if he does choose to shake the magic money tree and all the unions give their full and enthusiastic cooperation and the HSE and ORR are completely happy with the physical infrastructure as it is (e.g. regarding PEDs) and Network Rail (and TOCs, etc) are happy with driverless trains running on/adjacent to their infrastructure it would be at least a couple of years before the first driverless train carries passengers on London Underground.

Don't driverless DLR trains run alongside NR trains already?

they run parallel to each other but they dont share any tracks

[roythebus]

Of course the other problem is techno;ogy. Many years ago, maybe the late 1960s,

I was talking to a couple of friends who were BR/LT signalling design engineers. they went on to design the signalling for the Hong Kong Metro and other systems. Their problem was technology. As soon as something was designed, it was out of date.

Hence their continued reliance on good old-fashioned relays for a lot of what they're doing. How often does your windows-based PC update itself? How often are trains unable to run because the on-board computer wont talk to the static bits by the track? I'd suggest very frequently.

If this all goes ahead, I can see one happy group of people, those of us who drive rail replacement buses. Our future looks rosey. We've just been told the District will be closed every weekend until the end of August. That's maybe due to the collapsing "garden wall" factor.

[brigham]

Is 'driverless trains' really a 'selling point' in the eyes of Joe Public?
Sounds horrific to me.
I wonder what they'd say to 'driverless buses'?

[philthetube]

Are there any unstaffed trains anywhere running underground without a walkway in the tunnel?

[Tom]

Paris Line 1, I would suggest.

[toby]

Jul 13, 2020 13:01:15 GMT brigham said:

Is 'driverless trains' really a 'selling point' in the eyes of Joe Public?
Sounds horrific to me.
I wonder what they'd say to 'driverless buses'?

Probably "better not be on public roads, I use those. Go make some private roads or tunnels for those buses. Make them more efficient. I hear steel on steel is good."

[aslefshrugged]

I seem to recall that Paris Line 1 has technicians stationed every third or fourth station so if a train breaks down its never far from someone who can fix it. Its the fifth longest line on the Metro at 16.6 km long with 25 stations

By comparison the Victoria Line is 21km with 16 stations but is the second shortest line after the Waterloo & City. The longest line on the Metro, Line 13, is around 1km longer than the Bakerloo which is the 3rd shortest Tube line.

The distance between stations seems to be generally much shorter on the Metro than on the Tube