Antje
侵略! S系, でゲソ! The Tube comes from the bottom of London!
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Post by Antje on Jul 13, 2020 17:38:39 GMT
The station spacing and the mostly double track tunnels in the old sections were probably what motivated the RATP to automate Lines 1 and 4.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 13, 2020 18:15:25 GMT
Is 'driverless trains' really a 'selling point' in the eyes of Joe Public? Sounds horrific to me. I wonder what they'd say to 'driverless buses'? Probably "better not be on public roads, I use those. Go make some private roads or tunnels for those buses. Make them more efficient. I hear steel on steel is good." And you could raise the pavements at bus stops so that people don't have to step up and down so far. And make them electric so that there's less pollution. And maybe articulate them so that one unit could carry more people for greater efficiency. Then you could make sure people get their tickets checked before boarding to speed things up. Perhaps sink them and then put a solid tarmacked surface on top for other forms of transport thus better utilising space. Yeah, I reckon you're onto a winner, there. |
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Post by phil on Jul 14, 2020 10:48:28 GMT
Don't driverless DLR trains run alongside NR trains already? they run parallel to each other but they dont share any tracks
The DLR trains might be driverless, but they ALWAYS have a member of staff on board who has the ability quickly get mainline trains stopped quickly should a DLR train derail and become foul of NR infrastructure for example (Croydon Tram drivers are required to carry GSM-R radios so that they can contact NR signallers in an emergency between Arena and Beckenham Junction to provide similar protection).
LU have therefore said they would require to keep drivers (or some other form of on train staff) East of Bow were driverless trains bought in - and thats before you consider where they run over NR infrastructure which are unlikely to permit driverless operation.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 14, 2020 11:05:40 GMT
Not just east of Bow, there's "parallel running" on the West end of the Central Line
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Post by revupminster on Jul 14, 2020 11:29:51 GMT
Network Rail will have, if not already, the trains computer controlled throughout the central section of Thameslink and Crossrail core will also be controlled by computers. The driver is regarded as not having the ability to maintain the required headways.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 14, 2020 11:59:11 GMT
ATO, driverless and unstaffed are three different things.
With ATO there is always a driver supervising, ready to intervene at any moment should it be necessary.
With driverless there is always a member of staff on board able to take control if required, although not necessarily position at the front of the train
With unstaffed there is not guaranteed to be a staff member on board the train, any intervention required relies on remote monitoring.
Crossrail and Thameslink core will be ATO.
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Post by revupminster on Jul 14, 2020 20:06:32 GMT
Grade of
automation Train operation Description
GoA 0 On-sight Similar to a tram running in street traffic
GoA 1 Manual A train driver controls starting and stopping, operation of doors and handling of emergencies or sudden diversions.
GoA 2 Semi-automatic (STO) Starting and stopping are automated, but a driver operates the doors, drives the train if needed and handles emergencies. Many ATO systems are GoA 2.
GoA 3 Driverless (DTO) Starting and stopping are automated, but a train attendant operates the doors and drives the train in case of emergencies.
GoA 4 Unattended train operation (UTO) Starting and stopping, operation of doors and handling of emergencies are all fully automated without any on-train staff
International standard of train operation copy pasted from wikipedia.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 14, 2020 20:43:17 GMT
Grade of automation Train operation Description GoA 0 On-sight Similar to a tram running in street traffic GoA 1 Manual A train driver controls starting and stopping, operation of doors and handling of emergencies or sudden diversions. GoA 2 Semi-automatic (STO) Starting and stopping are automated, but a driver operates the doors, drives the train if needed and handles emergencies. Many ATO systems are GoA 2. GoA 3 Driverless (DTO) Starting and stopping are automated, but a train attendant operates the doors and drives the train in case of emergencies. GoA 4 Unattended train operation (UTO) Starting and stopping, operation of doors and handling of emergencies are all fully automated without any on-train staff International standard of train operation copy pasted from wikipedia. And GoA 4 is why we will need drivers (whatever they call them) on most of LU for a very long time. Up to GoA 3 is relatively easy, but with a system as old and complicated as LU, handling every possible exception condition (even enumerating every possible exception condition) is a mammoth undertaking. |
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Jul 14, 2020 21:18:50 GMT
Even GoA 3 is difficult depending on how it is implemented - DLR is a GoA3 system, and I'm not sure I'd want to have a Train Captain fighting their way through a packed eight car train in an emergency.
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Post by johnlinford on Jul 14, 2020 22:01:23 GMT
For the DLR there are very small gaps between stations (for the most part) and in tunnels there are continuous walkways. I'm not sure the reason for the tunnel walkways had really made sense until I started reading this forum.
While the plural of data isn't anecdote having commuted on it regularly until March this year, when it was busy the Train Captains generally took the "driver's seat" or stayed in the nearby vestibule and were very good at moving through the trains.
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Post by revupminster on Jul 15, 2020 6:26:41 GMT
Even GoA 3 is difficult depending on how it is implemented - DLR is a GoA3 system, and I'm not sure I'd want to have a Train Captain fighting their way through a packed eight car train in an emergency. How does a train driver do it now? He doesn't he gets the train to the next station for help. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 15, 2020 7:29:06 GMT
Even GoA 3 is difficult depending on how it is implemented - DLR is a GoA3 system, and I'm not sure I'd want to have a Train Captain fighting their way through a packed eight car train in an emergency. How does a train driver do it now? He doesn't he gets the train to the next station for help. Yes, because now, s/he's in the cab at the front. Many might think that's a very sensible arrangement. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 16, 2020 5:31:54 GMT
Even GoA 3 is difficult depending on how it is implemented - DLR is a GoA3 system, and I'm not sure I'd want to have a Train Captain fighting their way through a packed eight car train in an emergency. How does a train driver do it now? He doesn't he gets the train to the next station for help. Most faults can be resolved from the cab by the driver without any assistance, if a fault is severe we get the train to the next station, detrain the passengers and go to the nearest depot or sidings where the technicians can sort it out. In some cases - like the dreaded "mainline burst" - we have to go back along the train to deal with the fault before we can get it moving and in really severe cases we might need another train to do a "push out". There are many faults that can occur on a train, each one has a procedure to follow and we have to know all of them so that if a train develops a fault we can get it moving and cause as little delay to the service as possible That's why we get paid £55k pa regardless of whether we drive manually or work in ATO. Also the DLR has Passenger Service Agents (PSA), they stopped using the title "Train Captain" in the 1990s and they really don't like it if you call them that (my Sister-in-law was a PSA). |
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Post by stapler on Jul 16, 2020 7:10:52 GMT
<< Also the DLR has Passenger Service Agents (PSA), they stopped using the title "Train Captain" in the 1990s >>
Quite correct, but there haven't been any firemen on BR/NR since 1968, yet ASLEF still have the F in their title 52 years on!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 16, 2020 7:13:51 GMT
ASLEF sounds better than ASLE
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Post by brigham on Jul 16, 2020 7:41:44 GMT
There aren't any Locomotive Engineers in ASLEF, either.
Britain has a long list of eminent Locomotive Engineers, going right back to Hackworth and the Stephensons, none of whom, as far as I am aware, have been card-carrying members of ASLEF.
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Post by stapler on Jul 16, 2020 12:08:40 GMT
ASLEF sounds better than ASLE In my day, you'd be excoriated for saying "azleff". Only the BBC said that. It was the "Ay. esS. elL. E. and efF" ! (or "the Amalgamated Society") I've always wondered about " locomotive engineers" - perhaps an early officer from Pontypool Rd or wherever it was went to the US? Or perhaps they were native Welsh speakers! |
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Post by brigham on Jul 17, 2020 8:49:07 GMT
A Grand Sounding Title for a working-man's job, probably. Very popular with corporate bodies.
"My old man's a Waste Management Logistics Operative..."
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 17, 2020 10:55:11 GMT
A Grand Sounding Title for a working-man's job, probably. Very popular with corporate bodies. "My old man's a Waste Management Logistics Operative..." "Frontline used resource collection and transportation operative" (or something like that) is how I once saw it advertised |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 17, 2020 13:50:18 GMT
A Grand Sounding Title for a working-man's job, probably. Very popular with corporate bodies. "My old man's a Waste Management Logistics Operative..." "Frontline used resource collection and transportation operative" (or something like that) is how I once saw it advertised My old man's a FURCTO, he wears a FURCTO's hat. ETA: (Credit for thinking up the 'My Old Man' connection goes to brigham.) |
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Jul 22, 2020 5:52:59 GMT
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Post by brigham on Jul 22, 2020 7:59:00 GMT
So it sounds like a logical progression from an existing position, with the politicians trying to gain credit, as usual.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Jul 22, 2020 11:01:29 GMT
All that just to play politics with the mayor. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 22, 2020 11:54:02 GMT
The feasibility exploration will just tell them exactly what the PM was told when he was mayor: It is possible, but only if you are prepared to spend a massive amount of money in the short and medium term on infrastructure, staffing and regulatory approvals and have a fight with the unions, will not arrive within the next five years and will not, even in the long term, save a significant amount of money. Either it will be quietly dropped or it will be demanded that TfL deliver it without any money being allocated to do so. |
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Post by t697 on Jul 22, 2020 11:55:20 GMT
But at face value it's about the feasibility of moving to GOA3 operation (staff member still aboard) rather than GOA4 (unstaffed). One can then debate the responsibilities and pay of that person, but I'm not going to right here!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 23, 2020 12:40:24 GMT
But at face value it's about the feasibility of moving to GOA3 operation (staff member still aboard) rather than GOA4 (unstaffed). One can then debate the responsibilities and pay of that person, but I'm not going to right here! Is it? Boris said "So what I will be saying to the London transport authority is let’s take advantage of this technological leap forward, let’s not be the prisoners of the unions any more, let’s go to driverless trains". Converting to GoA3 would have no benefits whatsoever, the trains would still need a member of staff on board, they would have to be trained to the same level as Train Operators, they would expect to be paid the same as TOps and would undoubtedly join (or already be a member of) a union. The DLR is GoA3 and when RMT went on strike nothing moved for 48 hours apart from a single train staffed by a manager providing a shuttle service between Canning Town and Custom House for ExCeL so when Boris says he wants to "not be the prisoners of the unions" he must be thinking of GoA4 Or rather its more likely Boris thinks the DLR is GoA4 and didn't even notice that RMT went on strike even though he was Mayor at the time. Also worth noting that he's used the "technological leap forward" schtick before, in 2013 when he announced he was closing ticket offices he excused himself by claiming that technological advances had meant that things had changed since he pledged that they would all remain open in 2008. The technological advance was Oyster Card, the reason why Ken intended to close ticket offices on the first place(although he wanted more station staff not less). |
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Post by t697 on Jul 23, 2020 12:49:18 GMT
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 23, 2020 14:30:01 GMT
I suspect whoever wrote the "terms of reference" doesn't know the difference either
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 26, 2020 13:29:03 GMT
If Boris wants to expand "driverless operation from the DLR to other lines which are already automatic" then he's going to need a great big umbrella over the whole of the Central Line as I lost count of the number of times I had to switch to Coded Manual last night because ATO couldn't cope with the rain!
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 27, 2020 8:56:20 GMT
If Boris wants to expand "driverless operation from the DLR to other lines which are already automatic" then he's going to need a great big umbrella over the whole of the Central Line as I lost count of the number of times I had to switch to Coded Manual last night because ATO couldn't cope with the rain! 'only' the Central line (for the umbrella)? I thought that all lines with automation have 'issues' in wet weather, although maybe on some of them (Northern?) this is resolved by using less powerful braking over a longer distance - with the consequential increased journey time resulting in slightly less service frequency. |
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