Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 28, 2020 9:52:43 GMT
Every DLR train has a staff member on board at all times. Was that always the case? ISTR from 2014(?) that the later-in-the-night trains didn't- leaving the ExCeL center/Prince Regent station after 2200 our group were often the only ones on the train heading west. (My memory is a bit fuzzy on this.) There has never been a public DLR service that has intentionally* been without a staff member onboard as they are required to operate the doors. It's probable that you and your friends were just travelling in a different unit to the PSA. *Although on at least 1 occasion a PSA has managed to get left behind on the platform - londonist.com/2007/10/runaway_dlr |
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Post by superteacher on Oct 28, 2020 10:56:15 GMT
Was that always the case? ISTR from 2014(?) that the later-in-the-night trains didn't- leaving the ExCeL center/Prince Regent station after 2200 our group were often the only ones on the train heading west. (My memory is a bit fuzzy on this.) Who opened the doors? Always thought the door release was automatic once the train has berthed in a platform. |
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Post by zbang on Oct 28, 2020 22:55:29 GMT
It's probable that you and your friends were just travelling in a different unit to the PSA.
I'm fairly sure when I say 'only ones on the train', that's what I mean; and I think they were one-unit trains at that time. However, none of that precludes a PSA from hiding somewhere in the train and occasionally pushing buttons.
Why am I pushing this? Because I remember the novelty of seeing a PSA at a door control panel when I hadn't seen any before, and as a railfan I do tend to look around.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 28, 2020 23:53:30 GMT
Always thought the door release was automatic once the train has berthed in a platform. I think it is, but door closure definitely isn't. There aren't passenger-operated close buttons and the doors don't auto-close after a given time. Once opened they can only be closed by a staff member from the control panel they are keyed in to or from a driving desk they are keyed in to. |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 29, 2020 3:43:43 GMT
It was suggested that Boris might go for the Waterloo & City line as a demonstration project, being the earliest and cheapest possibility with five half-length trains and four half-length platforms to be equipped for £35 million, and a rare 9:1 benefit to cost ratio. However, this does not provide for the purchase of the new trains and the resignalling of the line preparatory to full automation. So I am sure TfL would say they could do far more with that money than provide a prestige demonstration project.
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Post by revupminster on Oct 29, 2020 7:06:47 GMT
Waterloo & city is the logical choice to trial driverless trains just as the Hainault- Woodford shuttle trialled the original Automatic Train Operation from the 5 April 1964.
I know the first automatically operated train was a set of District cars which began trials on the one mile stretch of track between South Ealing and Acton Town end of 1962. The first passenger train was also a District train no 123 on the eastbound track between Stamford Brook and Ravenscourt Park on the 8 April 1963.
There was no new stock. The trains for the Victoria Line were ordered on 10 March 1964.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Oct 29, 2020 8:58:51 GMT
The trouble with using the W&C as a proving ground is that, in reality, it proves nothing much at all. We already have completely unmanned point to point shuttle services (e.g. Gatwick Shuttle). Automating the W&C would do nothing more than has already been done, albeit with bigger and heavier trains.
As I have mentioned before in this thread, a fully automatic system has to be able to handle any and every exception condition on lines that converge, diverge, and cross at a vast number of locations. It also has to be able to handle failed trains and signals.
Comparing that to the W&C is like comparing a car that can drive itself from one end of a motorway to the other to one that can drive across London in the rush hour.
There really is no comparison.
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Post by brigham on Oct 29, 2020 9:00:01 GMT
Additional spending on the Waterloo and City is unlikely for any reason.
It will be allowed to run until the current infrastructure is in dire need of renewal, Glasgow Subway-style, and then the decision will be for abandonment on financial grounds.
The last long-drawn-out refurbishment demonstrated clearly, to politicians' eyes at least, that buses were easily able to carry the service, at a fraction of the cost.
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Post by 35b on Oct 29, 2020 9:20:44 GMT
Additional spending on the Waterloo and City is unlikely for any reason. It will be allowed to run until the current infrastructure is in dire need of renewal, Glasgow Subway-style, and then the decision will be for abandonment on financial grounds. The last long-drawn-out refurbishment demonstrated clearly, to politicians' eyes at least, that buses were easily able to carry the service, at a fraction of the cost. Politicians whose votes might be affected by a decision to abandon. Engineering closure brings the hope of better, in a way that closure closure does not. |
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Post by brigham on Oct 30, 2020 9:11:00 GMT
The economists behind the politicians will use their Big Business double-speak to promote the change to buses as 'better'.
I regularly took a tin of sardines with me, to eat on Saltburn pier. One day, the packet said "New Easy-Open Can". Good, I thought.
...Except that the "New Easy-Open Can" had no key with it. "Simply open with your kitchen can opener"!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 30, 2020 10:20:30 GMT
Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken but I seem to recall that the City of London Corporation makes a financial contribution to the operating costs of the Waterloo & City and permanent closure is unlikely while that continues.
Current plans are for the trains and signalling to be replaced as part of the "New Train for London" project along with the Central, Bakerloo and Piccadilly Lines. With all four lines sharing the same rolling stock drivers for the W&C would come from Elephant & Castle Train Crew Depot (as was done before the Class 482s/1992TS were introduced) instead of Leytonstone, reducing the amount of travelling time at the beginning and end of each shift.
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Post by 35b on Oct 30, 2020 10:31:12 GMT
Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken but I seem to recall that the City of London Corporation makes a financial contribution to the operating costs of the Waterloo & City and permanent closure is unlikely while that continues. Current plans are for the trains and signalling to be replaced as part of the "New Train for London" project along with the Central, Bakerloo and Piccadilly Lines. With all four lines sharing the same rolling stock drivers for the W&C would come from Elephant & Castle Train Crew Depot (as was done before the Class 482s/1992TS were introduced) instead of Leytonstone, reducing the amount of travelling time at the beginning and end of each shift. I thought the Drain was crewed by main line, not Underground, staff prior to transfer to LUL. And as the 482s were delivered before that transfer, when would Bakerloo crews have been involved? That’s not to deny the logic of using Bakerloo crews, mind! |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 30, 2020 10:45:50 GMT
Until a few years ago the managers on the W&C came from the Bakerloo, when I asked why I was told that initially E&C had provided the drivers but that was before I joined the company in 1997.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 30, 2020 13:54:11 GMT
I thought the Drain was crewed by main line, not Underground, staff prior to transfer to LUL. ! I'm sure they were. I have a vague recollection of some joint management arrangement with the ELL at one time - not so illogical as might first appear, as there would be some economies of scale in running the two (fairly small) operations jointly, and there was a frequent service between their respective depots at Waterloo and New Cross, taking less than 15 minutes (as long as you don't rely on the Tube Map to plan the trip....) |
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Post by revupminster on Oct 30, 2020 17:56:34 GMT
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Oct 30, 2020 20:40:43 GMT
I thought the Drain was crewed by main line, not Underground, staff prior to transfer to LUL. ! I'm sure they were. I have a vague recollection of some joint management arrangement with the ELL at one time - not so illogical as might first appear, as there would be some economies of scale in running the two (fairly small) operations jointly There was for a while before the East London Line closed, from memory. The two weren't jointly managed at a local level though; it was more senior management. It was only short-lived however; it was a joint operation with the Central line when I joined and then put with the Bakerloo for a short while. Until a few years ago the managers on the W&C came from the Bakerloo, when I asked why I was told that initially E&C had provided the drivers but that was before I joined the company in 1997. No, it was a joint operation with the Central line until the early 2000s, when management responsibility passed to the Bakerloo. There was a plan at one stage to remove the 1992 stock and replace it with spare 1972 Mark 1 stock, but the Corporation of London objected; I believe because they had contributed towards the trains when they were new. Had the plan gone ahead the trains would be worked by Elephant crews and the signalling remotely controlled from Baker Street, but it came to nothing. |
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Post by John Tuthill on Oct 30, 2020 22:22:46 GMT
I thought the Drain was crewed by main line, not Underground, staff prior to transfer to LUL. ! I'm sure they were. I have a vague recollection of some joint management arrangement with the ELL at one time - not so illogical as might first appear, as there would be some economies of scale in running the two (fairly small) operations jointly, and there was a frequent service between their respective depots at Waterloo and New Cross, taking less than 15 minutes (as long as you don't rely on the Tube Map to plan the trip....) Prior to 1994 the line was BR, before that SR and before that LSWR |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 30, 2020 22:42:07 GMT
Do all Leytonstone crew work the W&C, or only a select few, or link?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 31, 2020 4:15:17 GMT
Do all Leytonstone crew work the W&C, or only a select few, or link? All Leytonstone TOps are licenced to work the W&C apart from Night Tube part timers and the "700" duties are part of the roster. Some TOps prefer to work the W&C rather than the "Main" while others (like me) try to avoid the Drain as much as possible but we all have to go down there at least once every six months to keep our licences up to date. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Nov 2, 2020 20:40:53 GMT
In case any more financial common sense was needed you might be interested to see what 1 billion US dollars will buy you by way of a completely automated metro railway operation without a driver in sight.
Doubtless this will be seen as a massive improvement in parts of Istanbul where bus services are regularly gridlocked.
Key take-aways appear to be you still need PEDs (Platform Edge Doors) installed on every platform including open air stations. The headway at 6.30 between services does not seem impressive, nor does the speed of platform door opening or the eventual platform departure rate, all of which are already regularly exceeded by tube services in London. So in short driverless automation will massively reduce services not improve it.
Yes the accessibility features - are impressive - but that is pretty much what you would hope for any brand new metro line - good to see all the platforms are arrow straight so probably no issue with ensuring safe train to platform level access. I could not see whether the PEDs had sensitive edge systems but presumably they must to prevent doors shutting on passengeres who are not fleet of foot.
If you could somehow find the funds to covert LUL lines to a similar set up, it would at the very least entail buying totally new and consistent door layout trains, massive chaos and closures to relocate/replace all curved platforms in order to install PEDS on dead straight platforms with virtually no risk of people (or mobile phones) ending up falling between train and platform.
You would also need major investment in new signalling system and control centres and CCTV throughout the system including on train so that if(when) something breaks down, controllers can communicate with trapped passengers. All this to save a fraction of those costs by getting rid of train drivers despite those train drivers being critical in the current systems ability to operate far more intense service patterns>
In short if you are not building stuff entirely from scratch (like the Victoria) this idea is total madness. A bit like buying hundreds of stupid Routemaster buses lugging around the unnecessary weight of two staircases and a huge open rear platform which as they no longer have conducters are now never open. Sadly far too many politicians seem to lose sight of reality when they attain any position of power and are seemingly driven mostly by a desire to raise their public profile, pursue pet projects, and be seen cutting ribbons and opening stuff regardless of whether it is practical or affordable.
Thank god for bean counters...
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 6, 2020 16:08:47 GMT
There are some* metro systems with automated unstaffed trains that do not have platform doors, whether that would be allowed here in the UK remains to be seen.
*The two which come to mind - because I've travelled on them - are...
Vancouver Canada Skytrain
Lyon Metro line D
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Post by aslefshrugged on Nov 6, 2020 18:11:20 GMT
I believe I read somewhere (it might even have the business case) that if the DLR began operations today the ORR would have made PEDS a requirement and its allowed to continue (and expand) due to "grandfather rights".
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Post by phil on Nov 7, 2020 0:00:36 GMT
5 pages on and it seems people here are still cautiously dancing around the underlying message which The Government are trying to seed. Namely they would love to have a totally automated railway where trains can be left to operate without any onboard staff, with the true message being they want to eliminate the prospect of strikes by train drivers. Given how brilliantly well D/Transport's franchising solution is working on the mainline railway system, perhaps it really is time for the Mayor to call there bluff and simply say - fine - over to you it is all your problem.
Except he can't
Unlike mainline railways there is no provision legally for 'operator of last resort' on TfL (apart from London Overground routes that although the responsibility of TfL have certain legal guarantees dating back to the privatisation of British Rail).
For the DfT to take back control of TfL would require new legislation at Westminster - and for as long as the Mayor is of a different political outlook there is absolutely no incentive for Central Government to do that. Far better in their eyes to let the Mayor crash and burn in confrontation with trade unions or financially enforced shutdowns than step in and take charge of a project they privately know is unaffordable, impractical and ultimately a waste of the nations cash.
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Post by phil on Nov 7, 2020 0:04:01 GMT
I believe I read somewhere (it might even have the business case) that if the DLR began operations today the ORR would have made PEDS a requirement and its allowed to continue (and expand) due to "grandfather rights". Indeed
Thing is the original DLR system had straight platforms and level gradients at stations which make for the easy installation of PEDs.
Unfortunately the expansion of the system over the years has rather ruined that with several stations now on curves, gradients or both.
If the DLR ever gets a further extension though I can see them being insisted on - just as the Jubilee line extension to Stratford has them even though the earlier bits don't
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Post by johnlinford on Nov 7, 2020 0:29:18 GMT
I can't think of any DLR station on a gradient or curve - either would not allow the access from platform to train required for disabled access surely?
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Post by Chris M on Nov 7, 2020 2:00:10 GMT
There are very minor gradients at some stations - South Quay is slightly humped I believe for example, however nothing so significant that causes issues for accessibility.
I can't think of any station with a curve, although Westminster proves that PEDs can cope with gentle curvature.
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Post by quex on Nov 7, 2020 9:26:12 GMT
Canning Town (high-level) and Mudchute both have curves - nothing too exciting compared to Tube examples but enough that would potentially cause sighting issues. Island Gardens is also on a bit of a curve though slight in the grand scheme of thimgs.
The extension of trains from two to three cars has theoretically made the problem 50% worse at these locations.
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Post by John Tuthill on Nov 7, 2020 9:36:48 GMT
There are very minor gradients at some stations - South Quay is slightly humped I believe for example, however nothing so significant that causes issues for accessibility. I can't think of any station with a curve, although Westminster proves that PEDs can cope with gentle curvature.  Embankment Northern NB, Bank Central line? |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Nov 7, 2020 9:42:12 GMT
There are very minor gradients at some stations - South Quay is slightly humped I believe for example, however nothing so significant that causes issues for accessibility. I can't think of any station with a curve, although Westminster proves that PEDs can cope with gentle curvature. Embankment Northern NB, Bank Central line? I suspect he meant on DLR. If anyone knows just how many LU stations have curved platforms (and it's a lot) it will be Chris. |
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Post by John Tuthill on Nov 7, 2020 9:44:34 GMT
Embankment Northern NB, Bank Central line? I suspect he meant on DLR. If anyone knows just how many LU stations have curved platforms (and it's a lot) it will be Chris. It was just that he mentioned 'Westminster' I'd presumed he meant the UG |
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Embankment Northern NB, Bank Central line?
