1938 Tube Stock on the Central - Fiction or fact?

[lttractiongroup]

Evening All,

I'll start off by saying that as far as I am currently aware, '38TS did not operate for any reasonable amount of time on the Central Line, if at all. There may have been one-off exceptional movements that I'm unaware of, but they add little to answering this question.

A few people have suggested to me that '38TS was used on the Ongar branch shuttle early on. Whilst this would be excellent news, I imagine that they're probably thinking of the similar-looking '35TS that's known to have worked the shuttle.

Here is one suggestion that '38TS was used, citing a specific unit number; tube-history.dslack.uk/rolling-stock/1938.php#use-differant-lines
Is anyone able to confirm whether this is false or true?

If anyone believes that they have any sort of conclusive proof that '38TS operated on the Central Line for any length of time, please post here or get in touch with me please; I would be very keen to read/see/hear/watch it.

- Dan
--
Secretary, London Transport Traction Group
www.lttractiongroup.co.uk
[e-mail]

Also posted here; www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/157230-1938-tube-stock-on-the-central-line-fiction-or-fact/

[Chris L]

From Wikipedia

The London Underground 1960 Stock was a class of electric multiple unit for the London Underground Central line. Twelve motor cars were supplied by Cravens, and pairs were made up to four cars by the addition of two converted standard stock trailers. A production run of 338 motor cars was shelved, due to the time needed to assess the new features and the cost of converting the trailer cars. Some of the pre-1938 trailers were later replaced by 1938 stock trailers.

The trailers were painted to match the aluminium finish of the 1960 stock and I did travel on them.

[gantshill]

I am sure that at one point I had an Ian Allen ABC from the 1960s that suggested that a 1938 stock unit was used as a central line shuttle replacing a 1935 stock unit that was having work done on it.

[lttractiongroup]

Silly me, I ought to have clarified that I wasn't counting the '38TS trailers used with '60TS DMs! I'm particularly interested in '38TS DMs and associated complete sets.

If you're able to find that ABC, or which edition it was, then that could give us a very interesting lead.

We're obviously looking to acquire a Class 483 unit regardless, and there's already some connection with the EOR through the LNER link and the intended employment of the LNER-owned '38TS on the Central under the NWP. If we could not only say that we're reuniting our unit with its intended destination (that it never made it to in service) but also running an type of stock authentic to the branch, albeit perhaps only briefly, it would add an extra edge to the project and our aim to help celebrate the EOR's tube heritage.

[holborncentral]

I've always been convinced that they did use 38 stock on the Central line for a while until the 1959/62 stock was built. Just been trying to see if I can find anything and so far I haven't found much. Decided to ask Twitter and see if any of my followers know

EDIT: 4 of my followers have replied and they all said yes they were used on the Central line

[lttractiongroup]

Cheers holborncentral - Much appreciated. I'm less convinced that the '38TS ever saw widespread use on the Central, simply given an apparent lack of proof, but hopefully something will turn up. That ABC mentioned earlier would certainly be worth a look.

[gantshill]

I have found a reference (and photo) to a 1938 stock running on the Epping-Ongar shuttle. See page 74 of Brian Hardy's Underground Train File: Tube Stock 1933-1959 published in 2001. Also p68 of Piers Connor's The 1938 Tube Stock published 1989.
It does seem that it was just one unit that ran on the Central line from 1957 to 1960. Cars 10177, 012265 and 11177.
I am so glad that I used lock down to sort out my LT books.

[lttractiongroup]

Excellent - I'll chase those up but it looks like we may be onto a winner, potentially. I'll see if I can't find anything official from LT at the time.

[lttractiongroup]

It's a bit of an ask, gantshill but is there any chance that you might be able to share the relevant information (Scans or photos of the pages) with me via email? I will be ordering the books shortly, but can't see them arriving in time for me to be able to include the right information in our formal application (for a class 483) which we'll be submitting to South Western Railway tonight (Tuesday night).

- Dan
--
Secretary, London Transport Traction Group
www.lttractiongroup.co.uk
[e-mail]

[norbitonflyer]

The Tube History link above suggests only one 1938TS trailer was converted to work with the 1960 stock - in fact there were four: three (4921, 4927, 4929) on the Woodford shuttle, and a fourth (TRC912) for the track recording train, although it was never used and a 73TS car was used instead.

[countryman]

Aug 11, 2020 6:37:09 GMT norbitonflyer said:

The Tube History link above suggests only one 1938TS trailer was converted to work with the 1960 stock - in fact there were four: three (4921, 4927, 4929) on the Woodford shuttle, and a fourth (TRC912) for the track recording train, although it was never used and a 73TS car was used instead.

I understood that they used Standard sock trailers with the Cravens DMs

[ted672]

Aug 11, 2020 8:34:42 GMT countryman said:

Aug 11, 2020 6:37:09 GMT norbitonflyer said:

The Tube History link above suggests only one 1938TS trailer was converted to work with the 1960 stock - in fact there were four: three (4921, 4927, 4929) on the Woodford shuttle, and a fourth (TRC912) for the track recording train, although it was never used and a 73TS car was used instead.

I understood that they used Standard sock trailers with the Cravens DMs

When first in service each pair of Cravens cars had two standard stock trailer cars between them to make six four-car units, arranged in three eight-car trains.  The standard stock cars were replaced, during the late 70s I think, by a single 1938 stock car in each unit and a number of driving motor cards were scrapped, leaving only three complete three-car units.

[lttractiongroup]

Thanks to gantshill sending some very conclusive evidence, I am now certain that a '38TS unit was employed on the Ongar branch shuttle.

[Deleted]

Aug 11, 2020 10:08:03 GMT lttractiongroup said:

Thanks to gantshill sending some very conclusive evidence, I am now certain that a '38TS unit was employed on the Ongar branch shuttle.

It was indeed, without doubt.

[lttractiongroup]

The photograph is pretty difficult to argue with - Clearly North Weald and definitely '38TS in the Westbound platform!

[bruce]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that '38TS was fitted with high lift shoe gear, therefore it could not run under power through the central area. The shoe gear would have to have been removed at West Ruislip Depot and the unit would have been towed by a pair of battery loco's to Hainault Depot where the shoe gear would be refitted.

[astock5000]

There is a more detailed explanation in Piers Connor's book referred to above, but it should be noted that by the time individual 1938TS cars were assigned to LNER ownership due to the extensions to both the Central and Northern lines running over the LNER, the plans had already developed to the point that the Central line was to be operated by cascaded Standard stock with the 1938TS on the Northern and Bakerloo. This was due to the Central having fewer tube platforms, making extending to 8-car more practical there, while the Northern would receive the new stock without switching compartments taking up space. Meanwhile the flat-fronted 1935TS prototypes were already being proposed for use on the Ongar branch.

Therefore while a portion of the LNER-owned 1938TS cars were allocated to them due to the Central's extensions, there was never a plan for those cars to work on the line.

[John Tuthill]

Aug 11, 2020 14:56:22 GMT astock5000 said:

There is a more detailed explanation in Piers Connor's book referred to above, but it should be noted that by the time individual 1938TS cars were assigned to LNER ownership due to the extensions to both the Central and Northern lines running over the LNER, the plans had already developed to the point that the Central line was to be operated by cascaded Standard stock with the 1938TS on the Northern and Bakerloo. This was due to the Central having fewer tube platforms, making extending to 8-car more practical there, while the Northern would receive the new stock without switching compartments taking up space. Meanwhile the flat-fronted 1935TS prototypes were already being proposed for use on the Ongar branch.

Therefore while a portion of the LNER-owned 1938TS cars were allocated to them due to the Central's extensions, there was never a plan for those cars to work on the line.

And just to confirm it further, on page 32 of 'Connors tome, there is a photo showing "Property of the LNER" on a small metal plaque on the main chassis frame.

[Deleted]

The three-car 1938 that operated between Epping and Ongar was deputising for one of the flat-fronted 1935 units (10011-11011) which was away 1957-1960 on test train work.

[stapler]

I have a vague memory of travelling on one on the Loop, late 50s/early 60s but that may well have been a visit to Hainault depot, I suppose

[roythebus]

Aug 11, 2020 15:50:22 GMT John Tuthill said:

Aug 11, 2020 14:56:22 GMT astock5000 said:

There is a more detailed explanation in Piers Connor's book referred to above, but it should be noted that by the time individual 1938TS cars were assigned to LNER ownership due to the extensions to both the Central and Northern lines running over the LNER, the plans had already developed to the point that the Central line was to be operated by cascaded Standard stock with the 1938TS on the Northern and Bakerloo. This was due to the Central having fewer tube platforms, making extending to 8-car more practical there, while the Northern would receive the new stock without switching compartments taking up space. Meanwhile the flat-fronted 1935TS prototypes were already being proposed for use on the Ongar branch.

Therefore while a portion of the LNER-owned 1938TS cars were allocated to them due to the Central's extensions, there was never a plan for those cars to work on the line.

And just to confirm it further, on page 32 of 'Connors tome, there is a photo showing "Property of the LNER" on a small metal plaque on the main chassis frame.

Similarly some of the District Line stock had "property of the LM&SR" on brass plates on the door treads; the line was joint from Bow Road to Upminster.

[brigham]

Shades of Great Western & Metropolitan Joint Stock.

[roythebus]

Aug 18, 2020 7:49:40 GMT brigham said:

Shades of Great Western & Metropolitan Joint Stock.

Was that the stock that could run on 7' and 4'8 and a half?