LMR train - v - LT train 17/10/1962

[tom73]

One thing I hadn't previously realized about the 38TS train involved in the collision at Watford with the much larger and stronger LMR train was that the fact that the trailing three coaches of the 38TS  train were made up of two driving cars from 1938 but with a much less robust 1927 trailer car between them.  This resulted in the LMR train, which suffered very little damage telescoping the much smaller 38TS train resulting in two passengers being trapped in the older trailer car.  Very delicate separation operation of two severely damaged 38TS cars necessary.  It was a foggy morning with one failed signal involved but confusion over which one - HS4 (the one actually faulty) or HS6 - with the LMR driver being aware of a defective signal somewhere up ahead but having no idea which one.  He should have stopped and got on the phone but carried on and ploughed into the 38TS train.
My question is was it common for 38TS trains to be made up of one or more 1927 coaches in the early 60's?

[quex]

Indeed, many of the '38s on the Bakerloo ran with converted Standard Stock trailers from new. They were referred to collectively as the "'58 trailers".

[Deleted]

There were 58x1927 trailers on the Bakerloo Line for a fleet of 54x7-car trains. One "58 Trailer" (as they were known) was inserted into each three-car unit. The four remaining 58 Trailers were inserted into four-car units and therefore up to four trains could contain two 58 Trailers.

There are photos about in the late-1950s and early-1960s which show a three-car unit with an ordinary trailer, which was most likely the result of a temporary reformation because of collision damage or serious defect.

The 58 Trailer in the Watford crash was scrapped at Croxley Green depot, while the damaged 1938 motor car was repaired at Acton Works.

When the 58 Trailers were converted in 1938/39, they first saw service on the Northern Line but all were on the Bakerloo by 1941.

[spsmiler]

I recall reading about the imminent withdrawal of the Standard Stock trailers and going out of my way to have a ride in one of them. Apart from this ride I had no need to travel on the Bakerloo line as it did not go anywhere I needed to go. By way of contrast, I was a regular passenger on the '38 stock as I used them to get to and from school.

I think this occurred in 1972, which means that I would have been aged 12 / 13.

[jimbo]

I used to look out for these cars whenever travelling on the Bakerloo, as the experience was of another era, pre-38 stock! The lack of end doors meant they were rather crowded in the peaks. It was the same travelling on the District at the time and looking out for the older Q stock, especially the Q23, and the contrast to the Q38 cars.

[countryman]

Nov 9, 2020 18:20:35 GMT jimbo said:

I used to look out for these cars whenever travelling on the Bakerloo, as the experience was of another era, pre-38 stock! The lack of end doors meant they were rather crowded in the peaks. It was the same travelling on the District at the time and looking out for the older Q stock, especially the Q23, and the contrast to the Q38 cars.

I'm sure that many of the newer standard stock trailers had end doors. I would have thought that there was a mixture of cars with and without end doors formed into Bakerloo sets. Anyone know about the ratio.

[norbitonflyer]

Nov 10, 2020 19:48:59 GMT countryman said:

I'm sure that many of the newer standard stock trailers had end doors. I would have thought that there was a mixture of cars with and without end doors formed into Bakerloo sets. Anyone know about the ratio.

According to Brian Hardy's listing, unlike the Isle of Wight cars, which were a very mixed bag, the "58" trailers were all converted from one batch, built in 1927 - before end doors were a thing. Originally numbered in the range 1126-1208 and renumbered in the 1930 scheme in the 75xx range. On conversion to work with 1938 stock, they were renumbered in the 705xx range.

[t697]

It does seem odd that cars with only the 2 double doorways were selected. It would make those cars slower to finish alighting and boarding at stations compared to the rest of the train. Rather as repeated later with the awful middle cabs effect on 1983TS.
Perhaps taking those 58 cars away from other Standard stock trains was the greater benefit as those had their own problems with the loss of space for the traction equipment cubicles between cabs and the first double doorway.

[davidb]

I've just dug out my very battered copy of the 1963 edition of the Ian Allan ABC of London Transport Railways and there's a photo of 1927 trailer 70518 with end doors, the caption stating that the car had been rebuilt with them. According to the number list in the same book only one other of the '58 trailers', 70545, was similarly rebuilt. Incidentally the number range of the trailers is given as 70513-70570, they follow on from 70510-70512 which ran with the 35TS.

[metman]

Two trailers 70518 and 70545 were converted in 1957/58 with end doors as a trial for the proposed 1960 tube stock plan.

I was led to believe that the 58 trailers were surplus from the New Works Programme and were used as part of the 1938 stock to save costs. Why these particular cars were surplus is hard to say but many of them may have been made spare from the Northern and Bakerloo Lines and wouldn’t find a space on the Central Line were many of the redundant control trailers were to be used (as normal trailers) instead.

The lack of end doors although not ideal would have been off set by the adjacent singe doors of the 1938 driving motor (and in four trains a non-driving motor) although the guard would have used one of the door options when at the rear of the train. Perhaps this was thought as adventurous? We may never know.

[norbitonflyer]

Nov 11, 2020 20:46:28 GMT metman said:

Why these particular cars were surplus is hard to say but many of them may have been made spare from the Northern and Bakerloo Lines

Most were originally built for the Northern Line. The limited number of doors may have been a factor in why they were chosen to be transferred to the much less busy Bakerloo, whilst the Northern got all-new trains (and later 9-car versions), and the Central got the later versions of Standard stock

[stapler]

When did the last of the ex-Standard stock cars disappear from the scene,then?

[norbitonflyer]

Nov 12, 2020 8:08:42 GMT stapler said:

When did the last of the ex-Standard stock cars disappear from the scene,then?

According to this 11-year old thread, the last of the "58" trailers was withdrawn in 1974

Although standard stock trailers continued to work on the Woodford shuttle, with 1960 DMs, until 1983.

[t697]

Nov 12, 2020 8:36:05 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Nov 12, 2020 8:08:42 GMT stapler said:

When did the last of the ex-Standard stock cars disappear from the scene,then?

According to this 11-year old thread, the last of the "58" trailers was withdrawn in 1974

Although standard stock trailers continued to work on the Woodford shuttle, with 1960 DMs, until 1983.

Was it as late as 1983? I recall type testing the 3 car 60TS + 38TS trailer formation in the summer of 1976 or maybe 1977. Perhaps the changeover was a slow one with the last unit carrying on to the early 80s.

[norbitonflyer]

Nov 12, 2020 10:54:00 GMT t697 said:

Was it as late as 1983? I recall type testing the 3 car 60TS + 38TS trailer formation in the summer of 1976 or maybe 1977. Perhaps the changeover was a slow one with the last unit carrying on to the early 80s.

It was a very slow process, taking from 1975 to 1983. There was a hiatus when it was realised asbestos had to be removed from the 1960 cars. In the event only three (of the original six) units were converted
web.archive.org/web/20180807175248/http://www.cravensheritagetrains.co.uk/1960.htm

[metman]

Yes the final standard stock cars were withdrawn and scrapped in August 1983.

The Central Line generally received the older batches of pre-1938 stock 1922-1930 with the Piccadilly Line having the later batches 1927-1934 although there were exceptions.

The Northern City generally had 1927 Driving Motors, 1923 trailers and 1925 control trailers. The 1927 motors were replaced with some 1928-29 cars in the early 60s with spare Piccadilly 1931-34 stock moving in during 1964.

The 58 trailers, 1935 trailers and UNDM were first to be withdrawn from 1972 with the non standard 1949 trailers soon after.

[stapler]

Thank you for all this info. Does that mean the 1923 stock trailers, at 60, were the oldest LT stock ever to run in passenger service?

[norbitonflyer]

Nov 12, 2020 13:56:30 GMT stapler said:

Thank you for all this info. Does that mean the 1923 stock trailers, at 60, were the oldest LT stock ever to run in passenger service?

In LT service, probably. But there is 1938 stock still in service today on the Isle of Wight.

[metman]

None of the 1923 batch made it onto the 1960 stock trailer programme. Only 1927 and 1931 trailers were used. The 1923 trailers finished up in 1964 on the Northern City before many of those headed to the Isle of Wight. Still not a bad life from these cars.