Selective Door Opening

[class411]

Dec 8, 2020 10:05:45 GMT t697 said:

So you are saying those unfamiliar with a line/service tend to pay attention and hence will mostly heed the SDO announcements. It follows that those who are familiar with the line/service know where there are SDO doors cut out and position themselves accordingly. Not sure there is a residual problem of a magnitude actually needing any action here :-)

I did add the caveat 'If they have any sense'.

For getting the correct station, judicious use of the provided diagrams and station signs are sufficient to allow for successful disembarkation once you are on the correct train - thus, perhaps, engendering a false sense of security. SDO announcements, however, are vital to strangers to the route, and have the disadvantage that you are almost certainly not aware of when to expect them.

[Chris L]

Dec 8, 2020 10:22:37 GMT class411 said:

Dec 8, 2020 10:05:45 GMT t697 said:

So you are saying those unfamiliar with a line/service tend to pay attention and hence will mostly heed the SDO announcements. It follows that those who are familiar with the line/service know where there are SDO doors cut out and position themselves accordingly. Not sure there is a residual problem of a magnitude actually needing any action here :-)

I did add the caveat 'If they have any sense'.

For getting the correct station, judicious use of the provided diagrams and station signs are sufficient to allow for successful disembarkation once you are on the correct train - thus, perhaps, engendering a false sense of security. SDO announcements, however, are vital to strangers to the route, and have the disadvantage that you are almost certainly not aware of when to expect them.

It is unfortunate that S stock was delivered with dot matrix displays inside the trains.

Perhaps orders being a year or so later would have allowed better colour displays as on Class 345s.

This would have allowed multilingual messages to be displayed in the appropriate cars. Foreign visitors are a big problem in the last car at Baker Street.

[spsmiler]

Yes, people do 'switch off' from the announcements, especially if their attention is elsewhere, eg: engrossed in a newspaper!

Many tourists will not understand the announcements (although perhaps these could be made in other languages too? ... but which others? and how many others?)

Animated pictograms of moving arrows pointing to opening doors are universally understood.

[t697]

Dec 9, 2020 17:34:26 GMT spsmiler said:

Yes, people do 'switch off' from the announcements, especially if their attention is elsewhere, eg: engrossed in a newspaper!

Many tourists will not understand the announcements (although perhaps these could be made in other languages too? ... but which others? and how many others?)

Animated pictograms of moving arrows pointing to opening doors are universally understood.

That brings us back round to the 'Door not in use' indicators at SDO doorways.

As originally specified, the first (cancelled of course) ATC was supposed to trigger the relevant 'Door not in use' indicators to be on from just after leaving the previous station, giving something along the lines suggested above.

As that ATC was cancelled, we'll never know whether the supplier would have delivered on that requirement! 

Certainly not easy where the approaching station has more than one platform the train could go to, with different door patterns like Hammersmith (H&C) platforms 1 or 2 vs. platform 3.  Signalling/Signallers may not assign a platform that early or may reassign late to address an operational delay. 

In practice on S stock that particular site is fudged by not giving the advance warning as it is a terminating station so there is plenty of time for passengers to walk along to an open doorway anyway.

[AndrewS]

Baker Street as mentioned really is particularly bad. Embarrassingly as a member of TfL staff I've been caught out there, thinking I'm so far from the end of the train that I'm not even aware I'm in the end car and must surely be on the platform or having seen the door I'm by opening at other stops when ones further along haven't after an apparently similar message, then having to push through a crowded train (remember them?) at the last second to reach an open door. It really needs a conspicuously different announcement well before it reaches Baker Street along the lines of "If you can hear this announcement you need to move further (back/forward as appropriate)".

[t697]

Dec 11, 2020 0:36:34 GMT AndrewS said:

Baker Street as mentioned really is particularly bad. Embarrassingly as a member of TfL staff I've been caught out there, thinking I'm so far from the end of the train that I'm not even aware I'm in the end car and must surely be on the platform or having seen the door I'm by opening at other stops when ones further along haven't after an apparently similar message, then having to push through a crowded train (remember them?) at the last second to reach an open door. It really needs a conspicuously different announcement well before it reaches Baker Street along the lines of "If you can hear this announcement you need to move further (back/forward as appropriate)".

On S stock, the SDO announcements are only given in the car concerned. So if you see or hear it, yes it does apply to that car!
This is surely better than several other non LUL fleets where the announcement is a general one and you need to work out or remember whether you are on car 5 or whatever.

[class411]

Dec 11, 2020 0:36:34 GMT AndrewS said:

Baker Street as mentioned really is particularly bad. Embarrassingly as a member of TfL staff I've been caught out there, thinking I'm so far from the end of the train that I'm not even aware I'm in the end car and must surely be on the platform or having seen the door I'm by opening at other stops when ones further along haven't after an apparently similar message, then having to push through a crowded train (remember them?) at the last second to reach an open door. It really needs a conspicuously different announcement well before it reaches Baker Street along the lines of "If you can hear this announcement you need to move further (back/forward as appropriate)".

If you are getting off at Baker Street, simply ensure you are in a carriage with no driver's cab at either end.

[John Tuthill]

Dec 11, 2020 9:26:42 GMT class411 said:

Dec 11, 2020 0:36:34 GMT AndrewS said:

Baker Street as mentioned really is particularly bad. Embarrassingly as a member of TfL staff I've been caught out there, thinking I'm so far from the end of the train that I'm not even aware I'm in the end car and must surely be on the platform or having seen the door I'm by opening at other stops when ones further along haven't after an apparently similar message, then having to push through a crowded train (remember them?) at the last second to reach an open door. It really needs a conspicuously different announcement well before it reaches Baker Street along the lines of "If you can hear this announcement you need to move further (back/forward as appropriate)".

If you are getting off at Baker Street, simply ensure you are in a carriage with no driver's cab at either end.

No doubt regular travellers into Baker Street, are aware of the door situation, and will walk up the train, a lot easier now, prior to its arrival?

[class411]

Dec 11, 2020 10:56:51 GMT John Tuthill said:

Dec 11, 2020 9:26:42 GMT class411 said:

If you are getting off at Baker Street, simply ensure you are in a carriage with no driver's cab at either end.

No doubt regular travellers into Baker Street, are aware of the door situation, and will walk up the train, a lot easier now, prior to its arrival?

Indeed. I was just wondering how you could get caught out not realising you were by a non functioning door, but, thinking further, I suppose if it was pre-C19, and the carriage was crowded it would be quite easy.

[class411]

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know why they did not extend the Baker Street platforms further into the tunnels?

I can think of three reasons: excessive cost/excessive disruption to services whilst work carried out/ownership of space required, but would be interested to know which it was.

[100andthirty]

Class411 said: "Excessive cost/excessive disruption to services whilst work carried out/ownership of space required"

It was a combination of all those things, and the two latter points contribute to the first

[vincenture]

Dec 11, 2020 6:36:53 GMT t697 said:

Dec 11, 2020 0:36:34 GMT AndrewS said:

Baker Street as mentioned really is particularly bad. Embarrassingly as a member of TfL staff I've been caught out there, thinking I'm so far from the end of the train that I'm not even aware I'm in the end car and must surely be on the platform or having seen the door I'm by opening at other stops when ones further along haven't after an apparently similar message, then having to push through a crowded train (remember them?) at the last second to reach an open door. It really needs a conspicuously different announcement well before it reaches Baker Street along the lines of "If you can hear this announcement you need to move further (back/forward as appropriate)".

On S stock, the SDO announcements are only given in the car concerned. So if you see or hear it, yes it does apply to that car!
This is surely better than several other non LUL fleets where the announcement is a general one and you need to work out or remember whether you are on car 5 or whatever.

not just non-LUL actually, if you mean less severe Northern line selective door operation at Camden Town High Barnet northbound, Moorgate southbound, Hampstead northbound and Clapham Common southbound.

[vincenture]

Dec 11, 2020 12:01:07 GMT class411 said:

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know why they did not extend the Baker Street platforms further into the tunnels?

I can think of three reasons: excessive cost/excessive disruption to services whilst work carried out/ownership of space required, but would be interested to know which it was.

These reasons were mentioned by honourable t697 earlier in the discussion fyi.

[vincenture]

Just in: 5 days ago, looks like Liverpool Street Inner Rail/Westbound platform got extended so that eliminates another SDO. I wonder where the other two eliminations are (total 15).

[superteacher]

Dec 11, 2020 12:01:07 GMT class411 said:

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know why they did not extend the Baker Street platforms further into the tunnels?

I can think of three reasons: excessive cost/excessive disruption to services whilst work carried out/ownership of space required, but would be interested to know which it was.

I'm pretty sure you've answered your own question!

[class411]

Dec 12, 2020 11:11:57 GMT superteacher said:

Dec 11, 2020 12:01:07 GMT class411 said:

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know why they did not extend the Baker Street platforms further into the tunnels?

I can think of three reasons: excessive cost/excessive disruption to services whilst work carried out/ownership of space required, but would be interested to know which it was.

I'm pretty sure you've answered your own question!

Yes, and it turns out it had already been answered up thread.

What I really wanted to know was, whether the civil engineering itself would have been prohibitively costly, or whether it was the time the line would need to be completely closed for the work to take place?

[superteacher]

Dec 12, 2020 11:19:53 GMT class411 said:

Dec 12, 2020 11:11:57 GMT superteacher said:

I'm pretty sure you've answered your own question!

Yes, and it turns out it had already been answered up thread.

What I really wanted to know was, whether the civil engineering itself would have been prohibitively costly, or whether it was the time the line would need to be completely closed for the work to take place?

I suspect that both of those would alone be a reason to make the idea prohibitive.

[nnan]

Dec 11, 2020 0:36:34 GMT AndrewS said:

"... It really needs a conspicuously different announcement well before it reaches Baker Street along the lines of "If you can hear this announcement you need to move further (back/forward as appropriate)".

This is actually how the Class 345 SDO announcements are delivered! Something along the lines of 'if you are in this coach, you will need to move forward two coaches/one coach'. There is also a time delay in the announcing of it in adjacent carriages.

[t697]

So, some of you think that "All doors in this car will not open" isn't enough to provoke the thought 'ah, I'll move along since I want to get off'?
I think it's not the exact script that makes the difference but whether a passenger listens to or reads it at all.
I agree a different voice might help a little.
Send all your requests to TfL/LUL!

[alpinejohn]

Announcements work if it is clear and in your language.

They don't work when passengers have already tuned out due to incessant "safety" announcements.

They don't work if the announcement is timed to be made when it will be largely drowned out or made almost unintelligible by squeals and other noises as the train is rattling along with noises echoing from tunnel walls.

(They might work better if made whilst stationary at the preceding station) - however that would conflict with so many other automated announcements - This is Edgware Road, change here for Circle and Distict line services, This is a Hammersmith and City Train to Barking ...)

They don't work when visitors are already deep in conversation and not really paying attention until the train draws to a halt and they realise it might be a good idea to peek out the window to see if it is where they need to get off.

(Hence even if platform widths are not ideal - there is a case to try and clear all that redundant kit from the closed off bit of the Eastbound platform 5 at Baker Street so that they can get at least one more door to open, which cab ride videos show could be done without any need to alter the S7 stopping mark).

Sadly as TFL now have no money - I doubt the desire to progressively eliminate selective door opening will happen any time soon, even at platforms which are known to regularly cause delays due to extended dwell times.

I suspect given the collective knowledge on here it would be pretty easy to draw up a list of those platforms where selctive door opening is having a disproportionate impact on service frequency and might even inspire someone at TFL Towers to identify any platforms where minimal expenditure would deliver a quick win.

Eseentially that would mean only considering locations where any work involved could be done quickly with minimal costs and without impact on existing service levels, without structural impact, and without affecting areas currently accessible to the public.

[superteacher]

as a teacher, I would only raise my voice sparingly and when necessary to have an immediate impact i.e. to get attention quickly in a situation where safety is at risk.

If I raised my voice all of the time, it would have little impact when the message was needed the most.

As alpinejohn alluded to, there are way too many pointless announcements; therefore, most people just zone out of them.

[t697]

Dec 13, 2020 8:52:02 GMT alpinejohn said:

Announcements work if it is clear and in your language.

They don't work when passengers have already tuned out due to incessant "safety" announcements.

They don't work if the announcement is timed to be made when it will be largely drowned out or made almost unintelligible by squeals and other noises as the train is rattling along with noises echoing from tunnel walls.

(They might work better if made whilst stationary at the preceding station) - however that would conflict with so many other automated announcements - This is Edgware Road, change here for Circle and Distict line services, This is a Hammersmith and City Train to Barking ...)

They don't work when visitors are already deep in conversation and not really paying attention until the train draws to a halt and they realise it might be a good idea to peek out the window to see if it is where they need to get off.

(Hence even if platform widths are not ideal - there is a case to try and clear all that redundant kit from the closed off bit of the Eastbound platform 5 at Baker Street so that they can get at least one more door to open, which cab ride videos show could be done without any need to alter the S7 stopping mark).

Sadly as TFL now have no money - I doubt the desire to progressively eliminate selective door opening will happen any time soon, even at platforms which are known to regularly cause delays due to extended dwell times.

I suspect given the collective knowledge on here it would be pretty easy to draw up a list of those platforms where selctive door opening is having a disproportionate impact on service frequency and might even inspire someone at TFL Towers to identify any platforms where minimal expenditure would deliver a quick win.

Eseentially that would mean only considering locations where any work involved could be done quickly with minimal costs and without impact on existing service levels, without structural impact, and without affecting areas currently accessible to the public.

There already is an announcement of SDO at the next station, given at the previous one, in the car(s) concerned.  It's given again on station approach in the car(s) concerned.  It's only in the car(s) concerned, in an attempt to minimise unnecessary announcements.  The routine announcements are mostly what's necessary for RVAR.  I do agree that many of the Mind the Gap announcement platforms don't really need it.

All the quick win SDO reductions with a business case are done now except 3 which are to be done at ATC commissioning.  A lot of work by many people went into assessing the practicabilities at each site and the passenger benefits, so as to make (or not) the business case for changes. 

I've made the listing below for those aspiring to be an SDO history wonk, or to continue the debate about further change.

Apologies in advance for any errors or omissions in my records and researches.  I left out the centre roads at Acton Town and Hammersmith (District & Picc) rarely used by S stock and the emergency only platforms at Neasden and Willesden Green that also have some SDO.

Station	Platform	SDO Original	SDO Final	Notes
Wembley Park	Plt 1 NB	1F cut out	All Doors Enabled	Changed approx Nov 2010 after platform barrier mods completed. No change of stopping position.
Harrow on the Hill	Plt 4 NB	1R cut out	All Doors Enabled	To become All Doors Enabled at ATC commissioning with stopping position change.
Harrow on the Hill	Plt 6 SB	1R cut out	All Doors Enabled	Changed approx Nov 2010 after platform barrier mods completed. No change of stopping position.
Baker Street	Plt 5 EB	1F and 3R cut out	1F and 3R cut out	No change
Baker Street	Plt 6 WB	2F and 1R cut out	2F and 1R cut out	No change
Great Portland Street	Plt 1 WB	1R cut out (S8)	1R cut out (S8)	No change
Great Portland Street	Plt 2 EB	1R cut out (S8)	1R cut out (S8)	No change
Euston Square	Plt 1 WB	1R cut out (S8)	All Doors Enabled	Changed 27/4/2019 after platform barrier mods, OPO monitor removed and stopping position moved.
Euston Square	Plt 2 EB	1F cut out (S8)	All Doors Enabled	Changed 26/1/2018 after platform barrier mods and OPO monitor removed. No change of stopping position.
Barbican	Plt 1 EB	2R cut out (S8)	2R cut out (S8)	No change
Barbican	Plt 2 WB	1F and 1R cut out (S8)	1F and 1R cut out (S8)	No change. S7 is All Doors Enabled.
Liverpool Street	Plt 2 WB	1R cut out (S8)	All Doors Enabled	To become All Doors Enabled at ATC commissioning with stopping position change.
Ruislip	Plt 2 EB	1R cut out	All Doors Enabled	Changed approx May 2011 after platform barrier mods completed. No change of stopping position.
Eastcote	Plt 1 WB	1R cut out	1R cut out	No change
Rayners Lane	Plt 2 EB	1R cut out	1R cut out	No change
Parsons Green	Plt 1 WB	1R cut out	1R cut out	No change
Putney Bridge	Plt 3 WB	1R cut out	N/A	Platform 3 closed from 31/5/2016
Putney Bridge	Plt 2 WB	1F cut out	All Doors Enabled	In S stock use from 31/5/2016. SDO changed 10/11/2017 after OPO monitor removed. No change of stopping position.
Gloucester Road	Plt 1 WB	1F and 1R cut out	1F and 1R cut out	No change
Gloucester Road	Plt 2 WB	1F and 1R cut out	1F and 1R cut out	No change
West Brompton	Plt 1 WB	1F cut out	All Doors Enabled	Changed 26/9/2018 after OPO monitor removed. No change of stopping position.
West Kensington	Plt 2 EB	2R cut out	1R cut out	To become 1 rear cut out at ATC commissioning with change of stopping position.
Paddington (Circle & District)	Plt 1 WB/IR	2F and 2R cut out	1F and 2R cut out	Changed 29/11/ 2016 after OPO monitor removed. No change of stopping position.
Paddington (Circle & District)	Plt 2 EB/OR	1F and 2R cut out	1F and 2R cut out	No change
Bayswater	Plt 1 WB/IR	2F and 2R cut out	2F and 2R cut out	No change
Bayswater	Plt 2 EB/OR	2F and 2R cut out	2F and 2R cut out	No change
Notting Hill Gate	Plt 1 WB/IR	2F and 2R cut out	2F and 2R cut out	No change
Notting Hill Gate	Plt 2 EB/OR	1F and 2R cut out	1F and 2R cut out	No change
Goldhawk Road	Plt 1 EB	All Doors Enabled	1F cut out	Changed early 2013 to allow for new platform edge safety barrier. No change of stopping position.
Hammersmith (H&C)	Plt 3	1R cut out	1R cut out	No change. Departure end doorway.
East Ham	Plt 2 EB	1R cut out	All Doors Enabled	Changed mid 2013 after change of stopping position with front end platform improvements.
Barking	Plt 6 WB	1R cut out	All Doors Enabled	Changed 8/1/2014 after obstruction removed. No change of stopping position.
Sloane Square	Plt 2 EB	1F cut out	All Doors Enabled	Changed 06/02/2018 after OPO monitor removed. No change of stopping position.
Temple	Plt 1 WB	1F cut out	1F cut out	No change
Temple	Plt 2 EB	1R cut out	1R cut out	No change
Cannon Street	Plt 1 WB	1F cut out	All Doors Enabled	Changed 16/03/2018 after OPO monitor removed. No change of stopping position.
Cannon Street	Plt 2 EB	1F cut out	All Doors Enabled	Changed 16/03/2018 after OPO monitor removed. No change of stopping position. 1 rear cut out for a few weeks late 2019 for platform ramp repairs.
Monument	Plt 1 WB	1R cut out	1R cut out	No change
Monument	Plt 2 EB	1F cut out	1F cut out	No change
Dagenham East	Plt 2 EB	1F cut out	All Doors Enabled	Changed 9/11/2017 after ‘legacy’ obstructions removed. No change of stopping position.
Hornchurch	Plt 2 EB	1F cut out	All Doors Enabled	Changed 9/11/2017 after ‘legacy’ obstructions removed. No change of stopping position.
Upminster	Plt 5	1R cut out	All Doors Enabled	London end doorway brought into use 16/12/2018 after ‘legacy’ obstructions removed. No change of stopping position.
Ealing Broadway	Plt 7	1R cut out	1R cut out	No change. Departure end doorway.
Ealing Common	Plt 1 WB	2F cut out	1F cut out	Changed 12/12/2014 after slimmer OPO monitor for Picc fitted. No change of stopping position.
Ealing Common	Plt 2 EB	2R cut out	2R cut out	No change
Acton Town	Plt 4 EB	1R cut out	1R cut out	No change
Gunnersbury	Plt 1 WB	1F cut out	All Doors Enabled	Changed 8/12/2018 after ‘legacy’ obstructions removed. No change of stopping position.

[vincenture]

Based on my recent FOI request, and the recent video link I have attached, Liverpool Street has SDO removed. Another inconsistency I have noticed is the EB Ealing Common SDO is not mentioned here too, which as of September 2020 it has 2R cut out. Monument EB is a typo in your statement I'm assuming. So this leaves West Kensington and Harrow-on-the-Hill on the removal to have a total of 15 modifications since Liverpool Street is done. I assume the heavier modifications are counted so some were omitted in the counting process via Tfl.


Quotes removed, please only include relevant portions of post(s) if you need to quote someone else's post, rather than the whole post.

[t697]

I've corrected the list as per vincenture's comments about my error with Monument and omission of Ealing Common p2.

I think the FOI source was getting ahead of themselves about Liverpool Street. The new stopping position is required before the last door of an S8 train is at the platform. If you check the video again, at 7:21 you can see the stop marker chevron for platform 2 WB. To its right at the same height you can just make out the marker for the new stopping position, same height/size and black bagged.

Quite apart from anything else I don't think there is compliant signal sighting of the 'legacy' signal at the new stopping position and despite having a little inside knowledge, I'm not aware that the soon to be 'legacy' CSDE/SDO has been altered.
It's possible that the FOI source had information assuming that area would have ATC commissioned during 2020 as planned earlier before delays first from the signalling programme itself and later Covid related.

[philthetube]

Am I correct in thinking that the ones on the Uxbridge branch will not be changing because of the pic trains, as most have spare platform length but mirrors monitors in the way, and potential signal sighting issues

[t697]

The list of 15 that vincenture mentions is most likely all the changes made from Paddington p1 on 29/11/2016 onwards including the 3 ATC ones. The other 12 were in a programme that could only be undertaken after removal of the old fleets and removal of associated platform equipment usually OPO monitors or mirrors and end barrier adjustments.
Changes prior to that were mostly as a result of some infrastructure tasks lagging the new train introduction a little. I recall that Ruislip can only have had SDO for a very few weeks as S8 service on the Uxbridge branch only started in early 2011.

[t697]

Dec 13, 2020 18:47:16 GMT philthetube said:

Am I correct in thinking that the ones on the Uxbridge branch will not be changing because of the pic trains, as most have spare platform length but mirrors monitors in the way, and potential signal sighting issues

I recall that Eastcote and Rayners Lane SDO removal didn't meet a value assessment for passenger benefit vs. cost.

I think both could have been done with stopping position changes and no new platform construction but Signals Assets sighting rules played a part in determining cost even though S stock Operators are effectively using in-cab signalling when ATC is in operation and yes, at least for the foreseeable future, lineside signalling remains for Picc trains. 

[Deleted]

Am I going crazy, I’ve got a memory of 4 (3 on the rear and 1 next to rear) doors at one end at a station possibly Baker Street stay closed is that right or am I crazy?

[vincenture]

No, Baker Street is 1 front and 3 rear on the eastbound.

[t697]

Jan 11, 2021 23:57:47 GMT @spinba11 said:

Am I going crazy, I’ve got a memory of 4 (3 on the rear and 1 next to rear) doors at one end at a station possibly Baker Street stay closed is that right or am I crazy?

You may well be correct if you are recalling very early days of S stock operation.  As originally specified and built the trains had 4 SDO doors at each end, all the doors on DM cars and the first door on the next (M1) car. This was going to be needed for S7 trains if LUL had not exercised the option to extend the platforms at Hammersmith (H&C). Once that option was exercised and with a careful adjustment of the stopping position design at Baker St platform 5, we only needed a maximum of 3 doors cut out at an end, and that only at Baker St platform 5.

I just did some checking and find the technical work specifying the changes to the trains dates from 2011. Therefore the S8 trains went into service with 4 SDO doorways at each end and were modified later so the doorway on the M1 car now works normally. I seem to recall the mod was cut in during production so later trains certainly all or most S7 trains didn't need to be modified after build.

The SDO scheme is such that the default is the SDO doors are 'cut-out' and the control systems 'enable' them as appropriate to the platform concerned. If the train is not stopped in the correct stopping 'window', or if there's an equipment fault, the enabling is not asserted. The driver can open the doors with an Emergency Open feature and the SDO doors don't then open.

So to conclude, you might have experienced an Emergency Open on an unmodified train that still had 4 SDO doorways at each end.