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Post by A60stock on Jan 10, 2022 16:51:58 GMT
Alot of work seems to be due for the 72 stock but are any noted for the 73s? Even small refreshes or updates like LED lighting for the headlights?
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Post by jimbo on Jan 10, 2022 19:13:24 GMT
On the Piccadilly line, life extension work has been completed on 11 trains, door overhauls and new flooring laid on 25 trains, traction equipment overhauled on 5 trains and new seating installed on 40 trains. The existing fleet is required to remain operational until 2027, so a programme lift cycle has commenced and 10 of the 59 units are complete, including fitment of new axles. (Source TfL Programmes and Investment Committee on 15 December 2021.) The old Piccadilly line trains perform as well as more modern trains, and better than the Jubilee line fleet. The mean distance between failures is really bad on the Bakerloo and Central lines, where a lot of work is being undertaken on the trains.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 11, 2022 5:52:32 GMT
LU reported they had completed seat modifications/new moquette on all 172 units on 7 October.
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 11, 2022 20:04:42 GMT
On the Piccadilly line, life extension work has been completed on 11 trains, door overhauls and new flooring laid on 25 trains, traction equipment overhauled on 5 trains and new seating installed on 40 trains. The existing fleet is required to remain operational until 2027, so a programme lift cycle has commenced and 10 of the 59 units are complete, including fitment of new axles. (Source TfL Programmes and Investment Committee on 15 December 2021.) The old Piccadilly line trains perform as well as more modern trains, and better than the Jubilee line fleet. The mean distance between failures is really bad on the Bakerloo and Central lines, where a lot of work is being undertaken on the trains. Maybe the Jubilee line train woes are caused by the hard way the automated train control system drives them - full accelerate, coast, brake, partial power etc which is how humans sometimes drive trains?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 20:23:09 GMT
LU reported they had completed seat modifications/new moquette on all 172 units on 7 October. Yep all of them got the hard seats now
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Post by fish7373 on Jan 12, 2022 15:42:39 GMT
On the Piccadilly line, life extension work has been completed on 11 trains, door overhauls and new flooring laid on 25 trains, traction equipment overhauled on 5 trains and new seating installed on 40 trains. The existing fleet is required to remain operational until 2027, so a programme lift cycle has commenced and 10 of the 59 units are complete, including fitment of new axles. (Source TfL Programmes and Investment Committee on 15 December 2021.) The old Piccadilly line trains perform as well as more modern trains, and better than the Jubilee line fleet. The mean distance between failures is really bad on the Bakerloo and Central lines, where a lot of work is being undertaken on the trains. C/F Depot don`t do programme lift at all it is life Extensions lift as you say and new axles where fitted a long time ago.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 13, 2022 4:56:30 GMT
It seems a pity that the reliable Piccadilly line trains are heading for scrap within five years, when there seems no possibility of replacing the older unreliable Bakerloo line trains. Has there been any serious consideration of operating Piccadilly line trains on the Bakerloo, once replaced? I suppose that would admit defeat on plans for a new Bakerloo fleet, with no signs of funding. The current Bakerloo line trains fail twice as often as the Piccadilly ones, which travel at least twice as far between failures, and are scheduled to run over half as far again as each Bakerloo line train. The older Bakerloo line trains also cost 10% more in annual routine maintenance costs, allowing for the extra car in each. Earlier Piccadilly line trains were of the same dimensions as the current Bakerloo fleet until replaced. Demand on the Bakerloo probably doesn't justify the cost of brand new trains, which haven't been seen there since delivery of the 1938 6-car tube stock, which were soon lengthened with an older car!
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Post by Chris L on Jan 13, 2022 7:44:34 GMT
It seems a pity that the reliable Piccadilly line trains are heading for scrap within five years, when there seems no possibility of replacing the older unreliable Bakerloo line trains. Has there been any serious consideration of operating Piccadilly line trains on the Bakerloo, once replaced? I suppose that would admit defeat on plans for a new Bakerloo fleet, with no signs of funding. The current Bakerloo line trains fail twice as often as the Piccadilly ones, which travel at least twice as far between failures, and are scheduled to run over half as far again as each Bakerloo line train. The older Bakerloo line trains also cost 10% more in annual routine maintenance costs, allowing for the extra car in each. Earlier Piccadilly line trains were of the same dimensions as the current Bakerloo fleet until replaced. Demand on the Bakerloo probably doesn't justify the cost of brand new trains, which haven't been seen there since delivery of the 1938 6-car tube stock, which were soon lengthened with an older car! 1973 stock cars are longer than the existing Bakerloo line stock. The curves of the tunnels in the Piccadilly Circus area are too tight.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 13, 2022 8:07:31 GMT
I think the decrease in capacity would be a step back for the Bakerloo with fewer doors and fewer cars.
I don’t know what issues the extra length of the 1973 stock cars would lead to on the Bakerloo but there might need to be some alterations.
Finally I don’t know how compatible with the current supply the 1973 stock is north of Queens Park?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 13, 2022 9:33:29 GMT
Earlier Piccadilly line trains were of the same dimensions as the current Bakerloo fleet until replaced. They were, but the current Picadilly Line cars are longer and wouldnot have sufficient clearance on some of the tight curves on the Bakerloo brand new trains, which haven't been seen there since delivery of the 1938 6-car tube stock, which were soon lengthened with an older car! The 1972 Mark 2 stock was built for the Bakerloo, although it was run-in on the Northern as a temporary measure.
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Post by 100andthirty on Jan 13, 2022 16:13:28 GMT
norbitonflyer.....1972 mkII was designed for the Fleet line. It was fitted with wiring for ATO which came in handy for various subsequent projects that needed some spare wires.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jan 13, 2022 18:30:20 GMT
Yes,they were going to run on an updated version of the original Victoria Line system.As usual lack of money put paid to that.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 16, 2022 21:49:45 GMT
Earlier Piccadilly line trains were of the same dimensions as the current Bakerloo fleet until replaced. They were, but the current Picadilly Line cars are longer and wouldnot have sufficient clearance on some of the tight curves on the Bakerloo brand new trains, which haven't been seen there since delivery of the 1938 6-car tube stock, which were soon lengthened with an older car! The 1972 Mark 2 stock was built for the Bakerloo, although it was run-in on the Northern as a temporary measure. I thought the 1972 Mk2 stock was built with replacement of the 1938 stock on the Bakerloo as a final objective. Built early to save Metro-Cammell and placed on the Northern as a way of upping the image. It’s main assignment was to provide stock for phase one of the fleet line but only until the next stage was ready and then new stock for the fleet line would lead to its final transfer to the Bakerloo with OPO (one person operation) and possible ATO (Automatic Train Operation)?
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 17, 2022 1:13:19 GMT
The 1983 stock could work on on the Bakerloo, I recall reading in Underground News that at least one was tested on it - feel pretty sure that this included all the way to Watford and depot tracks at Queens Park.
Were the 1983 stock trains shorter than the 1973ts trains?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 17, 2022 7:09:52 GMT
Were the 1983 stock trains shorter than the 1973ts trains? 6-car 1983 Stock: 106.256m 6-car 1973 Stock: (depending on formation) 105.650m 105.447m
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2022 15:28:59 GMT
The 1983 stock could work on on the Bakerloo, I recall reading in Underground News that at least one was tested on it - feel pretty sure that this included all the way to Watford and depot tracks at Queens Park. Were the 1983 stock trains shorter than the 1973ts trains? A 1983 did go on the Bakerloo on test but only as far as Queen's Park and not Watford (the Watford Bakerloos had ended [in September 1982] by the time the 1983s came about). It also went into London Road Depot, which was a trifle problematical shall we say.
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Post by fish7373 on Jan 17, 2022 16:19:03 GMT
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Post by d7666 on Jan 18, 2022 0:26:38 GMT
While those dimensions themselves are important, they can't directly be used in isolation.
Curve throwover is not directly given there, several different dimensions combine together to yield the throwover value; there is probably enough data there to calculate it though, for a given curve, if good at geometry. Need to determine the most restrictive curve on any one line as that will be the determinating factor.
Curves are a problem, as suggested above by Mr.norbitonflier.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 21, 2022 0:17:38 GMT
Perhaps capacity would not be a problem on the Bakerloo in future, but the Piccadilly trains could provide the planned fleet increase to 42 trains, allowing a more frequent service if necessary.
Of course, the 1972 stock was always intended for the Bakerloo eventually, but released older trains on the Northern line until required for opening of Stage 1 of the Fleet, now Jubilee, line. It was intended to order a new fleet for Stages 2 and 3 onto Lewisham and possibly beyond, allowing the 1972 stock to eventually replace older trains on the Bakerloo. These extensions were not to be, and an order for 1983 stock for Stage 1 of the line allowed the 1972 stock trains to eventually arrive there. The 1983 stock, which was trialed over the Bakerloo, was of similar dimensions to the Piccadilly line trains, perhaps with slightly different profile and longer cab overhang, including both middle cabs, so perhaps 1973 stock would fit with minor adjustments at tight spots, as has been done on the Northern line in recent years.
But I think there is doubt that the larger gap on curved platforms from longer cars would be acceptable, as it was back when the Piccadilly line trains first arrived. Also the cost of adapting tunnels and depot facilities for new trains would have to be justified over their remaining life, which must be uncertain, but perhaps only as long as the current trains can soldier on!
It could be better to delay an order for new Bakerloo trains until the Lewisham, and beyond, extensions are clearer, when the economic case would be stronger. In the meantime the Central line case for new trains will be better, and could allow release of 42 trains from there to the Bakerloo. The car lengths are similar to current Bakerloo trains, but a car would need to be trimmed from each train, perhaps easiest by splitting 21 2-car units and making them trailer cars to insert into the remaining middle unit to provide a 7-car formation. The cost of such modification could be spread over a longer service life of perhaps 50 or more years in total, helped by the current CLIP modifications.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 21, 2022 15:07:37 GMT
Without wishing to veer off topic here I expect the modifications to make two two car units into a three car unit may be complicated. The power supply might also be an issue too.
Anyway, let’s get back on topic….
I’ve not been on the Picc for ages it will be interesting to see what the new seats are like. Similar to that 1995/96 ones I guess?
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Post by goldenarrow on Jan 21, 2022 15:38:56 GMT
Pretty much. I remember some passengers getting quite the shock when they didn’t sink as far as expected when the first units began to enter service. Still, it’s helped maintain a presentable interior that will see out this undeniably tired looking fleet. The 73’s have reached that point where the exterior white vinyls are fading to browns and yellows.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2022 11:08:22 GMT
Don't sink at all in the seats they are like sitting on rock
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