New car line diagrams (CLD)?

[trt]

My son sent me a puzzler. A photo (below) purportedly from a Piccadilly Line train showing one of the interchanges as "Central Line - Hanger Lane 690m".

Now, that is a 25 minute OSI (Out-of Station Interchange) but the other OSIs and interchanges on the CLD don't have "Line" after their names.

I was wondering, what makes this different?

[gantshill]

If you look at the other end of that line diagram, where the Overground OSIs are mentioned, it refers to "London Overground".

[Chris L]

Different line for Hanger Lane.

Less than 700m doesn't take 25 minutes.

[t697]

Jun 14, 2022 18:03:19 GMT Chris L said:

Different line for Hanger Lane.

Less than 700m doesn't take 25 minutes.

Different line, yes, but is it normal to include the word 'line' for OSIs?  Or 'new normal'?

[Chris M]

Jun 14, 2022 18:03:19 GMT Chris L said:

Different line for Hanger Lane.

Jun 14, 2022 18:45:45 GMT t697 said:

Different line, yes, but is it normal to include the word 'line' for OSIs?  Or 'new normal'?

On the pictured diagram the OSI to the other Hammersmith station just says "Circle" and "Hammersmith & City" not "Circle line" and "Hammersmith & City line", while the Park Royal OSI says "Central line" not "Central" so it's not being done consistently.

Jun 14, 2022 18:03:19 GMT Chris L said:

Less than 700m doesn't take 25 minutes.

OSIs are purposefully generous to allow for those who are less mobile to make the connection without being penalised. While it might not take you 25 minutes, it will take some people about that long.

[t697]

I think they let the 'Elizabeth line' style carry over into this Hanger Lane addition. As noted by Chris M, it doesn't match the long standing Hammersmith OSI style.

[spsmiler]

I've walked that OSI a few times!

Near to Park Royal station there is a bridge over the New North Main Line (NNML) and adjacent Central Line. From here it is possible to see Piccadilly line trains crossing over the Central and NNML tracks, in theory it should be possible to sometimes see 'one of each line' tube trains at the same time, although the relative infrequency of each route (even in the rush hours) makes this quite a challenge.

At one time the NNML was served by GWR / BR express trains to Birmingham and eventually Birkenhead (Merseyside) but nowadays very few mainline trains use that route.

People 'going trainspotting' on this bridge from either of the tube train services need to be aware of the OSI. It can work to one's advantage, if you plan carefully.

[brigham]

Jun 14, 2022 18:45:45 GMT t697 said:

Jun 14, 2022 18:03:19 GMT Chris L said:

Different line for Hanger Lane.

Less than 700m doesn't take 25 minutes.

Different line, yes, but is it normal to include the word 'line' for OSIs?  Or 'new normal'?

Looks like 'Line' after the name is the 'In Thing', since the Elizabeth Line opening.

[Chris L]

Jun 15, 2022 7:29:05 GMT brigham said:

Jun 14, 2022 18:45:45 GMT t697 said:

Different line, yes, but is it normal to include the word 'line' for OSIs?  Or 'new normal'?

Looks like 'Line' after the name is the 'In Thing', since the Elizabeth Line opening.

Adding line to every box would cause "fit" problems for the diagrams.

[trt]

Jun 15, 2022 8:21:09 GMT Chris L said:

Jun 15, 2022 7:29:05 GMT brigham said:

Looks like 'Line' after the name is the 'In Thing', since the Elizabeth Line opening.

Adding line to every box would cause "fit" problems for the diagrams.

It would. The only thing I can think is that it also has the station name shown (out of necessity I guess if you need to get walking directions via an app or follow street level signage - I have been to this station on a walkabout, but I wasn't looking specifically at street signs and whether there are multiple Central Line stations that are signposted). Another OSI in the photograph, Hammersmith, shares the station name with the Piccadilly Line. The overground interchange at Sudbury Hill has a different station name, which is shown on the CLD.

I also found it slightly curious how they chose to arrange the different lines on the interchange at Hammersmith.

[johnlinford]

I suppose the real question is - how is this OSI shown on Central line diagrams and is that at least consistent?

[brigham]

Jun 15, 2022 8:21:09 GMT Chris L said:

Jun 15, 2022 7:29:05 GMT brigham said:

Looks like 'Line' after the name is the 'In Thing', since the Elizabeth Line opening.

Adding line to every box would cause "fit" problems for the diagrams.

Nothing a few million to the publicity bods couldn't fix.

[spsmiler]

Jun 15, 2022 8:35:25 GMT trt said:

I also found it slightly curious how they chose to arrange the different lines on the interchange at Hammersmith.

Alphabetical ordering is usually logical - but I agree, it does not work here!

[trt]

Jun 17, 2022 22:56:53 GMT spsmiler said:

Jun 15, 2022 8:35:25 GMT trt said:

I also found it slightly curious how they chose to arrange the different lines on the interchange at Hammersmith.

Alphabetical ordering is usually logical - but I agree, it does not work here!

I noticed today on the Northern Line that they've not used Alphabetical ordering for Euston and Euston Square.



Myself, I'd have boxed out the station name & distance in black and white (the contrast levels for what is important information can be quite low and the reversed out type harder to read) and in that box included just the line names. 
Like this:

[rapidtransitman]

trt That's a brilliant and simple idea - and very clear!

[A60stock]

Jun 14, 2022 15:55:19 GMT trt said:

My son sent me a puzzler. A photo (below) purportedly from a Piccadilly Line train showing one of the interchanges as "Central Line - Hanger Lane 690m".

Now, that is a 25 minute OSI (Out-of Station Interchange) but the other OSIs and interchanges on the CLD don't have "Line" after their names.

I was wondering, what makes this different?

What annoys me about this version is that the interchange with the district line at Barons Court is now removed. I know that this must be because its shown at Hammersmith instead but the Barons court change being shown is very useful if heading westbound towards Heathrow/Uxbridge as Hammersmith is often very busy compared to Barons Court!

[trt]

Jun 23, 2022 14:15:25 GMT A60stock said:

...the interchange with the district line at Barons Court is now removed.

It's also missing at Gloucester Road and Turnham Green. It's no wonder Hammersmith gets so busy.

Jun 23, 2022 12:21:30 GMT rapidtransitman said:

trt That's a brilliant and simple idea - and very clear!

Thanks.
The thing is that in their line diagram standards, there isn't a standard for a walking interchange with another Tube line. Interchanges are covered in Section 8. There isn't anything in the standard about how to include the walking distance either.

I only have Issue 3 anyway. I don't know if there's an Issue 4 now.

There are so many deviations from Issue 3 in that Piccadilly Line CLD, that I'm wondering if there IS an Issue 4. Another one that stands out is the positioning of the Elizabeth Line flag box, which is shown above the Interchange Circle. Section 9 of Issue 3 is very clear on that.

"Flag boxes are always centred beneath the interchange circle and never above. When a flag box is required, the station name always appears above the interchange circle."

[Tom]

Jun 14, 2022 15:55:19 GMT trt said:

My son sent me a puzzler. A photo (below) purportedly from a Piccadilly Line train showing one of the interchanges as "Central Line - Hanger Lane 690m".

Now, that is a 25 minute OSI (Out-of Station Interchange) but the other OSIs and interchanges on the CLD don't have "Line" after their names.

643 metres and 8 minutes according to Google maps. Are they assuming someone is going to wait for a bus to do the journey (it's one stop)?

[Chris L]

Interesting that there is a standard for Piccadilly line graphics.
content.tfl.gov.uk/piccadilly-line-train-graphics-standard-issue-02.pdf

The featured diagram does not feature any of the recent changes. It states that changes can be made but I wonder who is deciding on them.

I used to manage production back in the 80s but would always be guided by the line management. I used to attend their management meetings to be aware of their views on any changes.

[Alight]

The change from T123 to T2&3 has finally meant that the announcements have been upgraded. Rather than "this is a Piccadilly line service to Heathrow Terminals 4 and 123" it now says "... Heathrow Terminals 4 and Terminals 2&3"

The platform DMIs still haven't been updated.

Side note: they took the opportunity to add the British Transport Police messages at select stations such as Wood Green; the same male voice as heard on the Northern line.

[brigham]

Does it actually say "Terminals 4", as if there were a plurality of them?

[Alight]

Yes it does, however the screens display "Heathrow Terminals 4, 2 and 3" and therefore don't repeat the word "terminals".

[spsmiler]

Jun 23, 2022 16:32:05 GMT Tom said:

Jun 14, 2022 15:55:19 GMT trt said:

My son sent me a puzzler. A photo (below) purportedly from a Piccadilly Line train showing one of the interchanges as "Central Line - Hanger Lane 690m".

Now, that is a 25 minute OSI (Out-of Station Interchange) but the other OSIs and interchanges on the CLD don't have "Line" after their names.

643 metres and 8 minutes according to Google maps. Are they assuming someone is going to wait for a bus to do the journey (it's one stop)?

I hope not - you MUST walk the whole way - and yes its a bit of a hike!

Its my understanding that catching a bus (to be technical: 'paying a bus fare using the same payment device') will break the railway OSI through fare.

In other words, instead of being charged a single through fare for a train journey which includes leaving the railway at a designated interchange station and entering the railway at another nearby designated interchange station (the walk between stations being free of charge) the hapless passenger will end being charged two separate train fares plus one bus fare. This is a nuisance for me when interchanging between Goblin & Central line trains in the Leytonstone area.

Its curious however that the system works differently with through bus / tram Hopper fares - which means that you can catch a train between two (or more) transports eligible for Hopper fares and as long as the touch-ins eligible for the Hopper fare are within the time limit* the happy passenger will only be charged for one bus / tram fare - plus train fare.

*Advertised as 60 minutes but actually 70 minutes - a time limit instituted when Tramlink began so that passengers could travel to / from tram stops on Tramlink feeder buses whilst being charged for one through journey.

[MoreToJack]

Jul 14, 2022 14:25:43 GMT spsmiler said:

*Advertised as 60 minutes but actually 70 minutes - a time limit instituted when Tramlink began so that passengers could travel to / from tram stops on Tramlink feeder buses whilst being charged for one through journey.

This time period has been 62 minutes since March 2021.