Class 378 retired???

[1972stock3567]

Does anybody know when the class 378 will retire? My guess is when they have enough 710s to operate all routes....

[rincew1nd]

I didn't think there were plans to retire them just yet. I thought the cl710 were to supplement them and allow better utilisation?

[xtmw]

Aren't theye (relatively) new or am I missing something...

[Chris M]

There is (or was) a plan to move the 378s that are used on the Watford DC line to the East London line (and North London line?) to increase services there. This would happen when there were enough 710s to allow it to happen. However, I don't recall hearing anything about this since circa before the pandemic, so I don't know if this is still the plan.
The units would not be retired though, the oldest members of the class were only built in 2010only entered service from new in 2009 so they are less than halfway through their expected life.

[metman]

Yes the 710s were built for the Barking branch and also to take over the Watford DC line. The spare 378s were destined to improve performance on the East London Line particularly.

There are quite a few class 378 in use and as stated they should have a lot of life left in them.

[andypurk]

The five car 710/3s (six units) were originally planned to supplement the North London Line fleet to allow more peak services and not to operate on the DC line. The DC lines would have been covered by 710/2s displacing some class 378 to the East London Line. Whether this is still the plan I don't know, but the DC line, along with the Gospel Oak - Barking, would need all the 710/2 fleet dedicated if the class 378s were to be completely displaced. Using the 710/3 on the DC line does allow some flexibility and maybe less training of staff on the North London Line, but there are still a couple of 378 duties remaining on the DC lines.

What was never clear to me was whether the use of the dual-voltage 710/2 units on the services out of Liverpool Street was part of the original plan, but this currently takes a couple of the fleet away from their main routes and I think that the use of 710s on Romford - Upminster route means that at least one 710/2 unit is needed on the eastern network.

Unless/until an increased timetable is introduced on the NLL or ELL routes there will be a quite an excess of units in the fleet, which is presumably why there is no hurry with getting the last 710s commissioned.

[capitalomnibus]

Oct 17, 2022 21:13:18 GMT Chris M said:

There is (or was) a plan to move the 378s that are used on the Watford DC line to the East London line (and North London line?) to increase services there. This would happen when there were enough 710s to allow it to happen. However, I don't recall hearing anything about this since circa before the pandemic, so I don't know if this is still the plan.
The units would not be retired though, the oldest members of the class were only built in 2010 so they are less than halfway through their expected life.

It has to be 2009 or 2008, I definitely remember them in service in 2009

[capitalomnibus]

Oct 18, 2022 18:46:06 GMT andypurk said:

The five car 710/3s (six units) were originally planned to supplement the North London Line fleet to allow more peak services and not to operate on the DC line. The DC lines would have been covered by 710/2s displacing some class 378 to the East London Line. Whether this is still the plan I don't know, but the DC line, along with the Gospel Oak - Barking, would need all the 710/2 fleet dedicated if the class 378s were to be completely displaced. Using the 710/3 on the DC line does allow some flexibility and maybe less training of staff on the North London Line, but there are still a couple of 378 duties remaining on the DC lines.

What was never clear to me was whether the use of the dual-voltage 710/2 units on the services out of Liverpool Street was part of the original plan, but this currently takes a couple of the fleet away from their main routes and I think that the use of 710s on Romford - Upminster route means that at least one 710/2 unit is needed on the eastern network.

Unless/until an increased timetable is introduced on the NLL or ELL routes there will be a quite an excess of units in the fleet, which is presumably why there is no hurry with getting the last 710s commissioned.

So are there 710's that have been built and not being used as yet?

[Chris M]

Oct 20, 2022 10:44:47 GMT capitalomnibus said:

It has to be 2009 or 2008, I definitely remember them in service in 2009

Having double checked, it was 2009. I'll correct my post above.

[jukes]

Point to note - only Class 378's can be used on the East London Line. And Class 378/1's are DC only. The 710/3s are rumoured too be going on hire to Southern to operate the Watford Junction - East Croydon service. However, that may now be in doubt as numbers of pax using that service is slowly growing back towards pre-pandemic levels so 6-units would not be enough to operate a viable service.

[goldenarrow]

Oct 20, 2022 10:48:21 GMT capitalomnibus said:

So are there 710's that have been built and not being used as yet?

From the Investment Programmes Report Q1 2022/23:

Class 710 trains

Fifty of the 54 Class 710 trains have been delivered by manufacturer Alstom and accepted into use by London Overground. The last four trains, two of which are being used by Alstom for further train software development, are expected to be delivered between Quarter 2 and Quarter 4 2022/23.

[d7666]

2 comments

[1]

Oct 18, 2022 18:46:06 GMT andypurk said:

What was never clear to me was whether the use of the dual-voltage 710/2 units on the services out of Liverpool Street was part of the original plan,

710 originaL fleet is sized w.r.t. to spares for routine maintenance cover that a 710/2 being dual voltage could cover any 710/1 or 710/2 duty - but a 710/1 can't cover a DC only 710/2 duty; the 710/2 fleet is slightly disportionately bigger than base AC or dual AC/DC diagrams needs; hence a 710/2 working AC only out of Liverpool Street should not be considered extraordinary or even remarkable, it is simply they using one for cover.

[2] I didn't understand the "retire" 378s comment either: 378s obvously are not due for any retirement only cascade away from the Euston DC lines; I am wondering if there is some confusion here with main line 376s - before covid, and even before that the SET re-franchise suspended, there was a plan by the then franchise bidders (or at least one of them) to discard 376s.

It was a complex 376 plan - largely irrelevant here - and not now happening anyway; the 376s were proposed for conversion to BEMU (they have much more space for batteries than 4car 375/377) after leaving SE, although it was never clear for what routes (possibly it was a RosCo idea not a TOC) the relevance to here is that one route, of many, stories was Marylebone Aylesbury using LU DC between Harrow and Amersham that would have given them a long range by charging on the electric section. Entirely academic now. IMHO some of it hailed from cloud cuckoo land anyway.

[metman]

Oct 20, 2022 14:08:46 GMT jukes said:

Point to note - only Class 378's can be used on the East London Line. And Class 378/1's are DC only. The 710/3s are rumoured too be going on hire to Southern to operate the Watford Junction - East Croydon service. However, that may now be in doubt as numbers of pax using that service is slowly growing back towards pre-pandemic levels so 6-units would not be enough to operate a viable service.

I’d be surprised if the 710s would be suitable for working the West Coast Mainline route, they only have a top speed for 75mph? Seems largely irrelevant now anyway.