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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 19, 2022 9:50:18 GMT
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 19, 2022 15:18:42 GMT
so close to Christmas, when road travel will be heavy and slow, not even resignalling to allow more frequent services to be restored over the section that is jointly operated
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Post by selbiehouse on Nov 19, 2022 17:57:07 GMT
No one would ever want to go to Watford for shopping the week before Christmas. What planet do these people live on?
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Post by d7666 on Nov 19, 2022 19:44:15 GMT
The planet these people live on is one where the work that needs to be done has been put off and deferred and postponed and put off until you get to a point where it HAS to be done.
If you read general NR non job specific plans, this is a recurrent theme: pressure for ever longer hours of timetables (earlier starts, later finishes) means less time for work in daily possessions, while at the same time ever more frequent timetables accelerate the need for maintenance and renewals, especially with modern rolling stock that is heavier than older generations.
Yes disrupts xmas shopping, but, it is also a period when many people take annual leave, and the schools and uni.s etc are off, so you are not disrupting essential commuting as much; that's why the 2nd dates in Feb. are half term.
Rather than be critical, how would YOU do this ?
Close very weekend for xxx weeks where xxx is large ?
There is total work here of 16 days in 7day + 9day possession. That does not mean you can get away with 8 x 2 days weekends because it is much much less efficient in terms of placing resource to and from work site .. and significantly more expensive in terms of human man hours ££££ ..... don't forget you have to remove materials trains and then reinstate rails, ballast, bridges, signalling, traction power, comms, cabling, other infrastructure towards the end of every possession ... so you get much less on site working time. I'd guess something like 14-16 weekends of total closure would be needed to cover the same work. If you started that in mid-January they'd still be at it Mid-May. Meanwhile, you have then taken all the resource towards those weekends so other sites get less attention, they in turn deteriorate, so you start a vicious circle.
Or an alternative is half term in Feb then wait for the next half term in May - by which time you have deferred some of this essential work - that has almost certainly already been deferred over past years - by another 6 months. Then wonder why the service collapses through infrastructure failures.
These decisions are not taken lightly, you can be sure the train operators, LU and LO and impacted main line TOC, will have objected and whined about xmas shopping and sought every alternative to get to this point. Believe it or not, no-one actually wants to inflict this sort of travel disturbance. The only people who do believe that sit in their armchairs at home entirely clueless about how such work ever gets carried out, all offering negativity, and nothing positive.
It is very simple.
You have to break eggs to make an omlette.
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Post by d7666 on Nov 19, 2022 20:14:49 GMT
A question though.
Is Stonebridge Park depot access available, either continuously or intermittently, during these closures ?
There seem to me to be two main questions there
(1) is there enough stock and berthing locations to run the planned service
(2) can that outberthed stock run that long
without the main depot ?
I suppose I could wait until the relevant internal notices come out, but then thought maybe the forum might like that point of debate ?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 19, 2022 21:29:50 GMT
Is Stonebridge Park depot access available, either continuously or intermittently, during these closures ? There seem to me to be two main questions there (1) is there enough stock and berthing locations to run the planned service From Friday 16 December night until Saturday 24 December morning, two trains will be outstabled from Stonebridge Park depot to Elephant & Castle sidings to be used as service spares as required. Defective trains will changed over as required, during engineering hours under controller's timings. Service frequency and trains available in the first post. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Nov 19, 2022 23:07:44 GMT
That's assuming Elephant sidings are recommissioned by then - they've been out of commission for a while after a cable fire.
The LU section typically can stable 21 trains, more if both platforms at Elephant are also used for stabling. From memory, the last time access to Stonebridge Park was cut off was during a similar track replacement possession in 2004.
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Post by johnlinford on Nov 20, 2022 9:55:59 GMT
d7666 makes an excellent point about why posessions like this are needed. As a regular transport user, I would much prefer regular later running and more intensive services that suffer well planned 1 or 2 week a year closures during school holidays than either endless weekend closures or otherwise not being able to travel when it is useful and convenient for me the rest of the time. You can plan around them much better, and the maintenance does need to happen.
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 20, 2022 10:58:59 GMT
It appears the West Midlands Trains services are operating so they may serve some intermediate stations such as Wembley Central, Harrow and Wealdstone, Bushey and Watford Junction?
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londoner
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Post by londoner on Nov 20, 2022 17:04:14 GMT
It appears the West Midlands Trains services are operating so they may serve some intermediate stations such as Wembley Central, Harrow and Wealdstone, Bushey and Watford Junction? ...and Southern services from Milton Keynes to Clapham Junction according to real time trains: www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/simple/gb-nr:HRW/2022-12-18/1659 |
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Post by d7666 on Nov 20, 2022 20:15:29 GMT
Yes, main line services on the AC tracks are running normally, sorry, I thought that was taken as read but now I see it was not mentioned upthread; had I realised it had not been mentioned I would have included this as further reason why closure of the DC / Bakerloo is not as high impact is it might have been with a total closure of everything.
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Post by jimbo on Nov 20, 2022 20:56:30 GMT
Do we know what they are doing where? And why two goes at it?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 20, 2022 21:22:41 GMT
Do we know what they are doing where? drainage renewal at Harlesden, sleeper renewals and the demolition of an old sub station at Willesden. |
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 20, 2022 21:29:42 GMT
My main comment was more about this being done at a time when the alternative (road travel) will be negatively impacted because of Christmas shopping.
The summer would have afforded longer hours of daylight and better flowing road traffic.
I do approve of single but longer closure 'hits' rather than endless weekend closures, however (from the way I understand what is being said) the fact that the works were so frequently deferred until we reached what sounds like 'emergency closures before something bad happens' does not fill me with confidence in how our railways are managed.
Something similar also recently occurred on the Boston Mass. USA Orange line, I am shocked to now find what sounds like a similar-ish scenario taking place here in London.
As an aside, I do recognise that whilst this closure affects a London Underground service (as well as a 'mainline railway' service) it involves infrastructure owned and managed by Network Rail.
re: the alternative services, erm I saw somewhere else that this will be the last time that AC electric trains call at Wembley Central? Not even football specials will stop here in the future?
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Post by d7666 on Nov 20, 2022 23:04:43 GMT
, however (from the way I understand what is being said) the fact that the works were so frequently deferred until we reached what sounds like 'emergency closures before something bad happens' I am not saying this is what has happened in this case _ I do not know this - but it is certainly a plausible explanation. Away from topic, it is known this happened with the Brighton main line - there was so much pressure from TOC to run trains including the near 24/7/364 h service that essential maintenance got more and more behind with knock on effect of more infrastructure failures and or emergency possession to carry out what had been deferred. Brighton was the example NR used - possibly deliberately while Gatwick Airport major works and the then new additional Thameslink services were in the news - but there were other locations getting in similar straits. When was the last time the DC lines were closed for an extended period, by which I mean longer than a single weekend at a time ? I can't ever remember this. The AC lines have had extended closures though. re: the alternative services, erm I saw somewhere else that this will be the last time that AC electric trains call at Wembley Central? Not even football specials will stop here in the future? As far as I can see - from RTT - Wembley Central is still in the new 12/2022 timetable served by the Southern Croydon | Watford service : www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:WMB/2022-12-12/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SNwhich is more or less the same calling pattern as now; there are currently a handful of LMWR trains that call there in the small hours - these appear to have gone in the new timetable according to RTT. As an interesting coincidence, there is a somewhat unusually a railtour planned to start/finish there coming up soonly : www.ukrailtours.com/product/the-class-56-farewell/Nothing whatsoever to do with this thread, just one of those random occurences when one starts debating something - no matter what you debate the norm of the subject becomes disturbed by a random event. |
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Post by Tom on Nov 21, 2022 0:13:00 GMT
When was the last time the DC lines were closed for an extended period, by which I mean longer than a single weekend at a time ? The last time I can recall was the October 2004 half term week. |
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Post by zbang on Nov 21, 2022 16:31:49 GMT
I do approve of single but longer closure 'hits' rather than endless weekend closures, however (from the way I understand what is being said) the fact that the works were so frequently deferred until we reached what sounds like 'emergency closures before something bad happens' does not fill me with confidence in how our railways are managed. Something similar also recently occurred on the Boston Mass. USA Orange line, I am shocked to now find what sounds like a similar-ish scenario taking place here in London.
As I understand, the Orange line closure has generally been considered successful and allowed the MBTA to get far more work done than they would have with a succession of weekend closures ("Thirty days of 24-hour access to the Orange Line replaces over five years of weekend diversions needed to address delays and slow zones.")
Oh, in this discussion, are AC and DC lines referring to the traction power or something else?
(Massachusetts Bay Transpo. Authority)
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Post by d7666 on Nov 21, 2022 17:45:17 GMT
Oh, in this discussion, are AC and DC lines referring to the traction power or something else? Where I have used those terms in my posts yes - AC lines being the 25 kV WCML from Euston, DC being the 750 V Euston Watford (LO) lines (often colloquially called "the DC lines"). Saying closing the DC lines includes closing the Bakerloo north of Queens Park, and saying AC encompasses the Clapham Watford main line service as well as Euston main line services. |
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Post by d7666 on Nov 21, 2022 17:46:55 GMT
When was the last time the DC lines were closed for an extended period, by which I mean longer than a single weekend at a time ? The last time I can recall was the October 2004 half term week. 18 years ago then. So 16 days of closures over 2 periods works out average less than 1 day per year. Not that disruptive overall is it ? OK OK lies lies and damned lies use of ststistics there, but I think it gets the point across. |
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Post by greggygreggygreg on Nov 22, 2022 4:15:42 GMT
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Post by croxleyn on Nov 22, 2022 17:01:02 GMT
Does not the crossover just north of Wembley Central still exist (carto metro)? A Watford Junction to Wembley LO shuttle would be easy, either feeding into the fast services at Wembley/Harrow+Wealdstone, or the OSI at Kenton to Northwick Park (Met line). Would save the majority of the tedious Rail Replacement bus...
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Nov 22, 2022 19:09:51 GMT
It's only easy if the signalling and power supply arrangements, access to the depot (for trains and people), etc are uninterrupted and there is no work taking place on this stretch of the line. Given that no service along these lines is being run it seems most likely that the planners who are in possession of all the relevant information have concluded that it is not only not "easy" but also not practical.
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Post by dazz285 on Nov 22, 2022 19:50:23 GMT
From Network Rail website.. www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/major-bakerloo-and-london-overground-upgrades-this-decemberThe improvements in December will include: Installing 6,000 modern concrete sleepers in place of wooden ones dating back to the 1950s Upgrading 1.6km of railway drainage between Harlesden and Kenton to prevent future flooding Replacing 10km of cabling for signals – traffic lights for trains Improvements to 5 stations north of Queen’s Park* Station makeovers will include platform resurfacing and roof canopy maintenance Upgrading the power supply for Underground and Overground trains Demolition of a derelict, railway-locked electricity substation in danger of collapse Works taking place between Harlesden & Kenton so no option of using Wembley for a shuttle.. *The list of station refurbishments in December is: North Wembley, South Kenton, Kenton, Headstone Lane, Carpenders Park. Work across those sites includes clearing guttering, roof repairs, canopy renovations, installing tactile paving and resurfacing platforms |
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 23, 2022 20:48:30 GMT
I wonder whether the works will also include platform end barriers - not at the platform end but ones that block access beyond the part of the platform where trains actually usually stop? My concern is that this would prevent me from ever again taking a photo like my profile picture, eg: if a slow moving Avanti liveried Pendolini that had just switched tracks (as here) was passing a stationary Bakerloo line train.  On the topic of platform / stations works, some years ago I was filming from a location very close to station that was outside the fares paid area whilst a work crew were busy 'doing something' and I noticed what may have been some sort of supervisor constantly looking at me (from where he was standing he had to look in a different direction from the actual place of work to see me). The next time I went there (barely a week later) a new barrier had been erected exactly where I had been standing. |
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Post by zbang on Nov 24, 2022 3:54:33 GMT
Demolition of a derelict, railway-locked electricity substation in danger of collapse Any other info on that? The network rail web page doesn't elaborate. |
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Post by dazz285 on Nov 24, 2022 12:32:42 GMT
Nope sorry as I mentioned I took all that info from Network Rail as we drivers no nothing...
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Post by Chris L on Nov 24, 2022 19:38:30 GMT
Demolition of a derelict, railway-locked electricity substation in danger of collapse Any other info on that? The network rail web page doesn't elaborate. As mentioned higher up the thread the substation is at Willesden Junction. It adds that the building is in danger of collapse. |
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Post by trt on Nov 25, 2022 10:48:17 GMT
Any other info on that? The network rail web page doesn't elaborate. As mentioned higher up the thread the substation is at Willesden Junction. It adds that the building is in danger of collapse. Would that be the one with half the walls missing? |
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Post by roythebus on Jan 7, 2023 19:05:05 GMT
There's another week long closure during February half-term week. As a driver on the service from Watford to Harrow/Wealdstone and Harrow on the Hill, yes, traffic was awful in Watford at certain times. but we done our best and with a resilient timetable it worked well. Or would have done if there hadn't been emergency road worked just south of Weadstone Station that caused up to an hour's delay to buses! It was taking more than that to get from H&W to HotH and back so some journeys were cut short. I understand there ended up being at least 3 sets of emergency rad works from Harrow to Queens Park which caused considerable delays to other services.
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 7, 2023 19:10:42 GMT
There's another week long closure during February half-term week. As a driver on the service from Watford to Harrow/Wealdstone and Harrow on the Hill, yes, traffic was awful in Watford at certain times. but we done our best and with a resilient timetable it worked well. Or would have done if there hadn't been emergency road worked just south of Weadstone Station that caused up to an hour's delay to buses! It was taking more than that to get from H&W to HotH and back so some journeys were cut short. I understand there ended up being at least 3 sets of emergency rad works from Harrow to Queens Park which caused considerable delays to other services. whoa, very bad timing for the road works and what a disaster for the passengers |
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