C stock 4- and 8-car trains

[jimbo]

When C stock was being ordered to replace CO/CP stock, a 3+3 formation could have been retained, but a 2+2+2 was used with each unit having only one cab. It was envisaged that on Sundays the H&C would operate with only 4-car trains, as the Met did, but this never came to be. I believe a 4-car train was substituted on the Chesham branch on one occasion, but was there ever any other 4-car C stock public service? I also believe that one 4-car withdrawn train was transferred to Northwood for disposal.

It was also envisaged that the new trains could one day operate on the traditional Circle Line in 8-car formations. District and Metropolitan 8-car trains were already accommodated at most Circle Line platforms, so only the remaining few would have needed the fitting of narrow walkways on the adjacent tunnel wall, as was commonly done at the time. This became less acceptable with the District Line adopting 7-car trains in 1971, allowing many of these 'catwalks' (? was that the term) to be removed. I presume C stock never operated in 8-car formations, unless there were any trials?

[t697]

Not passenger service but I recall using a 4 car C stock formation for rheostatic / friction brake blend improvement tests in 1982.

I recall being told that the 2 car unit formations were chosen so as to facilitate 8 car trains as described, but as a continuation build to replace the whole District fleet, which didn't happen of course. Plans changed, the District went to 7 car trains and the replacement trains were then the 6 longer car D78 stock instead which was a cheaper solution and in many ways a better train.

I also seem to recall being told that on 8 car C stock the Guard might still have had to ride in the cab of car 6 (of 8) so as to have a usable view of the platforms and would therefore need to look both forward and rearward for safe dispatch! Seen this done on NY Subway but I doubt it would be acceptable here today! Yes I know they had to do the same on trains with the Guards panel in the saloon, but then it was just a couple of doorways behind them.
Sorry if I'm wrong, someone else may enlighten us on how 8 car C stock would be operated on the District main line especially at the shorter platforms needing end doors cut out.

[jimbo]

It may be that an 8-car C stock was considered for the District Line, but my comments are based upon meeting minutes at the time of the original order, as I recall, and District Line replacement was still some time off. I can confirm that it was envisaged that the guard would remain in a cab at the end of the 6th car, looking back to two cars rather than the usual one. However, the C stock cars were rather short, so that an 8-car train would have been some 6 metres short of a conventional train. If the train stopped on the 8-car mark, the rear passenger doors would have been around where the guard usually stood, which was on the platform and not the catwalk.

At that time there was still a high-cost programme to lengthen District Line platforms to eliminate catwalks. That was abandoned with falling passenger numbers, and the adoption of 7-car trains. After studies of possible articulated cars came the 1973 tube stock, which demonstrated economies with longer cars, and these became the basis for D stock for the District mainline, with a small batch of C stock to cover the shorter platforms on the Edgware Road branch.

[t697]

I think there were some stations without the 'catwalk' where the driver and guard both had to use end door cut out on an 8 car District R stock for example. Temple would be one case. With 8 car C stock being about 6m shorter the problem would be less but not non-existent.

At initial C stock procurement do these records imply the trains would go to OPO at some point?

[stapler]

What a nuisance the shorter C stock trains were for passengers where the service (eg Victoria - Tower Hill) was shared with Ds

[t697]

And on the north side of the Circle too. I think there are still warning notices about it on the wall at King's Cross Eastbound behind where the rear of a 6 car C stock would stop. These advise passengers this area only for Met trains. Should have been removed or at least to the rear of 7 car S stock.

[metman]

I’ve often wondered if a 3 car C stock unit would have been used for the main District Line order if that had ever gone ahead? This would have been able to form 6 and 7 car trains for both Circle and District Line services.

I think in the end passengers did rather well with the D stock.

The two car unit was useful in the small confines of Hammersmith depot.

[jimbo]

Dec 30, 2022 7:29:07 GMT t697 said:

C stock was the first type after opening of the Victoria Line and came prepared for auto-operation equipment once resignalling was undertaken. That has still to reach Barking even today! Before delivery it was realised that the train was suitable for easy adaption to one-person operation, and a wage/productivity deal for LU included a union commitment to talk about this. Then Government negotiated safety requirements added new layers of costs, including emergency stop plungers at all platforms linked to three new trackside red lights. It took a long while for LU to decide on the economic case before completing installation. By then the Unions felt entitled to further reward which made it uneconomic, and the newly installed equipment was abandoned. The one-person operation finally introduced in 1984 was much simpler.

[jimbo]

Dec 30, 2022 13:12:11 GMT metman said:

I’ve often wondered if a 3 car C stock unit would have been used for the main District Line order if that had ever gone ahead? This would have been able to form 6 and 7 car trains for both Circle and District Line services. .....

The predecessor CO/CP stock came in 2- and 3-car variants for that reason, also making 8-car trains.

[spsmiler]

Dec 30, 2022 8:16:44 GMT stapler said:

What a nuisance the shorter C stock trains were for passengers where the service (eg Victoria - Tower Hill) was shared with Ds

Dec 30, 2022 9:04:48 GMT t697 said:

And on the north side of the Circle too. I think there are still warning notices about it on the wall at King's Cross Eastbound behind where the rear of a 6 car C stock would stop. These advise passengers this area only for Met trains. Should have been removed or at least to the rear of 7 car S stock.

I am not sure off the top of my head if any of these were removed / relocated after conversion to S7 / S8 trains but this photo dates after the S stock had replaced the A & C stocks.



It is shame that the C stock trains never ran in 8 car format, even if only at special events such as football at Wembley with a through service from Barking.


re: the four car format, I filmed one of these making its final trip in the Northwood area on the day it was carted off for scrap. This film is now a decade old but people still watch it and offer their condolences!!

[jimbo]

In its early years C stock would serve local line stations at the ends of the day to and from Wembley Park for Neasden Depot. It was also diverted to cover cancellations from time to time to probably all Metropolitan and District Line destinations. What a pity it didn't form 8-car trains on the Met, but these were last minute arrangements. 6-car C stock football specials did operate occasionally between New Cross Gate and Wembley Park, non-stopping the short stations on the East London Line, and I believe also from Barking.

[aldenham]

Dec 31, 2022 3:41:43 GMT jimbo said:

What a pity it didn't form 8-car trains on the Met, but these were last minute arrangements. 6-car C stock football specials did operate occasionally between New Cross Gate and Wembley Park, non-stopping the short stations on the East London Line, and I believe also from Barking.

Not sure it's maximum speed would have been appreciated on an Amersham fast service!

[towerman]

Couple of times in 74/75 when I was at Ricky Sdgs saw a C stock shooting past on an Amersham service.

[jimbo]

C stock was the first LU stock ordered after the Victoria Line trains, the first designed for one-person operation, and incorporated many of these new features. Traditionally crews had to isolate faults at the middle of a train in order to obtain movement. The Victoria Line trains incorporated equipment in the leading cab to achieve the same effect. This was also followed with the C stock, although complicated by three units in a 6-car train rather than only two units in an 8-car Victoria Line train. Since the C stock was ordered with possible 8-car operation in mind, I wonder if the cab isolation equipment made reference to possible four-unit trains.

[Dstock7080]

Jan 7, 2023 4:45:30 GMT jimbo said:

Since the C stock was ordered with possible 8-car operation in mind, I wonder if the cab isolation equipment made reference to possible four-unit trains.

The cab mounted FIS Fault Isolation Switch had 4 positions:
“Coupled” (normal)
“Fault Isolation 1” (units 1 & 3 isolated)
“Uncoupled & Emergency”
“Fault Isolation 2” (unit 2 isolated”.

Although not marked for 8-car operation I can remember being told that it was possible and that instruction would be given if 8-car operation was ever considered normal.

[roythebus]

Having blagged a cab ride on a C stock on training trips on the DR in July 1970, the instructor said they were only designed to run in 6-car formations. He reckoned there were about 28 modifications needed in the cab alone, thinks like it being impossible for the driver to blow the whistle if he's making an emergency brake application.

It was very rare to see a 2 car unit except in a depot. I don't recall seeing one anywhere. They always ran as 3x2-car units. It was also false economy to couple and uncouple units as a spare crew would be needed to do that in service.

[jimbo]

Sorry roythebus, was the "28 modifications needed in the cab alone" for 8-car operation, or to allow the new stock to enter service? I can't see how "impossible for the driver to blow the whistle if he's making an emergency brake application." is related to 8-car but not 6-car trains? How did that problem come about? Shortage of air? Or too far apart to reach both?

Perhaps the original concept of a future 8-car Circle Line service had been dropped before manufacture commenced. Service coupling and uncoupling probably ended due to staff shortages, mainly with stabling runs and returning part-trains back to couple. Depot splitting and coupling of trains was less expensive for short trains on a Sunday.

The 2-car C stock units had no driving controls at the far end, like R stock of the time, but shunting controls were fitted when they were refurbished, presumably due to revised safety risk assessments.

[d7666]

Jan 7, 2023 5:55:14 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Jan 7, 2023 4:45:30 GMT jimbo said:

Since the C stock was ordered with possible 8-car operation in mind, I wonder if the cab isolation equipment made reference to possible four-unit trains.

The cab mounted FIS Fault Isolation Switch had 4 positions:
“Coupled” (normal)
“Fault Isolation 1” (units 1 & 3 isolated)
“Uncoupled & Emergency”
“Fault Isolation 2” (unit 2 isolated”.

Although not marked for 8-car operation I can remember being told that it was possible and that instruction would be given if 8-car operation was ever considered normal.

Question.

If 8car C stock trains were to be formed _ how flexible ?

C stock were 2car "half" units DM+T that I'll abbreviate to MT.

A 6car could be MT-MT-TM or MT-TM-TM depending how you look at it (same thing in opposite directions) _ but never could be formed M coupled to M (or cab to cab if you prefer) as that was impossible to do with 3 units and have cabs at both ends.

Would 8car have had that limitation, not couple cab to cab, or would MT-TM + MT-TM have been possible, as built, without mods ?

Can I be clear in the question - I am asking if cab to cab operation was technically possible NOT that there was no need, was never needed, so wasn't done, etc, i.e. not operating limits.

[jimbo]

Not answering the question, but with guard operation requiring a cab at the end of the sixth car (see above) the 8-car formation would have been limited at the time, in your notation, to MT-MT-TM-TM.

[d7666]

Jan 7, 2023 22:57:09 GMT jimbo said:

Not answering the question, but with guard operation requiring a cab at the end of the sixth car (see above) the 8-car formation would have been limited at the time, in your notation, to MT-MT-TM-TM.

Good point with crew operation.

So with OPO then .......

[jimbo]

In later years, service uncoupling involved 2-cars on or off the east end of District Line trains, or 4-cars on or off the south end of Metropolitan trains. It seems to me that Sunday uncoupling for the H&C may have been too hard, given that these trains are booked to turn from time to time on the Circle Line, and sometimes also due to service disruption. To drop a unit from a 6-car to leave a 4-car with cab at each end would depend on the direction of the middle unit. Within the confines of Hammersmith Depot, it would have been difficult to either split and take the first two units out for service, or to remove the first unit to allow the rest to enter service. This for each train for the Sunday service, and then recouple at day's end in the same manner. A similar problem would have arisen in adding a unit to a 6-car train in order to obtain the correct 8-car formation. Perhaps this is why they settled on permanent 6-car formations?

[Dstock7080]

I certainly don’t think 8-car C Stock could’ve worked on the Circle.
Bayswater being the shortest platforms require 4-doors (2 each front & rear) of a 7-car S Stock to be automatically cut/out.
C Stock had buttons to cut-out 3 doors in the leading car. (Guard could operate rear cut-out).

[jimbo]

I calculate an 8-car C stock would be almost 8.5 metres longer than an S7, but Bayswater doesn't now have the catwalks fitted that District trains once used to open their doors against on the main route for 8-car trains. I believe with crew operated trains at short platforms the driver cutout doors at his end, whilst the guard cutout rear ones as necessary. It was realised that work would be necessary at the Circle Line platforms not already served by 8-car trains, probably mainly catwalks.

[towerman]

Back in the 70s all Met trainmen’s depots were C stock trained as at weekends they had some duties that did Circle turns,Ricky had a Saturday duty that took a train to Baker St then did a rounder on the Circle.

[t697]

Jan 8, 2023 7:00:03 GMT jimbo said:

I calculate an 8-car C stock would be almost 8.5 metres longer than an S7, but Bayswater doesn't now have the catwalks fitted that District trains once used to open their doors against on the main route for 8-car trains. I believe with crew operated trains at short platforms the driver cutout doors at his end, whilst the guard cutout rear ones as necessary. It was realised that work would be necessary at the Circle Line platforms not already served by 8-car trains, probably mainly catwalks.

I'm pretty sure NHG, Bayswater and Paddington (C&D) never had platform extension catwalks for longer trains. Also the platforms, track layout and signalling at Edgware Road wouldn't have taken 8 cars, even though they currently take 7.

The person (now passed on alas) who trained me about the possibility of 8 car C stocks implied they would have been for just the District main line route, but the idea was overtaken by the D78 stock.

[jimbo]

Correct, the catwalks were on the District main line, not the branch, but were planned to be installed as part of the, maybe 10-year, plan for 8-car Circle Line trains. I don't know what was envisaged for Edgware Road, but there has been talk from time to time of relaying both ends for higher speeds, so far without finance. The C stock was specifically designed for high-density central area demand, with four pairs of doors to each shorter car side, and more than three in four passengers standing. I can't see it ever being popular in the leafy outer suburbs of the District Line, but it was welcomed to fill extended gaps on the branches from time to time.

[towerman]

A short train working from the Central Line from the past,1532 unit ran as a 3 car on the Hainault-Woodford shuttle for a while when 9533 was at Acton Works for derailment repair.When 9533 went to Acton Works it went between two pre38 TS ballast motor cars,I was the fitter riding on that stock move,passengers were standing up to board train as we went through stations.