Minor delays last week

[trt]

The Jubilee line is, in my mind anyway, one of the most reliable lines, yet I noticed that for most of last week there were minor delays most of the time when the rest of the network was showing good service. I thought it looked unusual. Is there an issue with rolling stock availability or the signalling?

[goldenarrow]

Stock availability has been steadily degrading the service on the Jubilee line for the past 4-5 months. Cancellations nudging double figures for most of the day are now increasingly commonplace

[100andthirty]

Does anyone know what the stock issues are?

[Dstock7080]

Feb 15, 2023 7:22:53 GMT 100andthirty said:

Does anyone know what the stock issues are?

I believe it’s a continuation of this issue:
www.railwaygazette.com/metros/london-underground-trains-to-be-modified-to-address-cracking/63096.article

UK: Tenders have been called for the modification of the 63 seven-car Type 96TS trainsets used on London Underground’s Jubilee Line to provide a long-term solution to fatigue cracking.

Fractures were found on the longitudinal beams of underframes in 2019, and a large number of the trains had to be withdrawn until the implementation of a temporary repair which is now approaching the end of its life.

[trt]

Are there particular symptoms of these longitudinal issues? For example shoebeams?

[t697]

The longitudinal beams being mentioned in that quote above are integral parts of the carbody structure, not collector shoebeams.

[trt]

Indeed, but they are used as mounting points for various bits of equipment, are they not?
I just wondered how these defects would manifest themselves, if at all, and how the defects would be detected. What kind of inspection would pick this defect up and how often is it carried out? Are they having to be inspected more often due to this being picked up?

[DWS]

Shoe beams are mounted on the bogies not on the under frame or car body,

[Colin]

Feb 15, 2023 10:29:12 GMT trt said:

Are there particular symptoms of these longitudinal issues? For example shoebeams?

I seem to recall that the last time this was an issue it was the area around where the semi permanent couplers are attached.

[trt]

Doh! Of course. Just curious as a friend was trying to describe something they'd seen on the track when we were discussing the unusual number of delays. I should get them to take a photo next time they see something!

[Chris M]

Feb 15, 2023 15:14:24 GMT trt said:

What kind of inspection would pick this defect up and how often is it carried out? Are they having to be inspected more often due to this being picked up?

I strongly suspect that since the cracking was first detected in 2019 there has been a check devised that looks specifically for it. I would expect it is done at least as frequently as other regular inspections require the train to be in the position where it can be checked. I don't know how often this is though.

[jimbo]

TfL Investment programme report Quarter 3 2022/23 (18 September to 10 December 2022) has this update:

Jubilee line (fleet overhaul and component renewal)

The first phase (pull-forward) of the overhaul programme was completed ahead of schedule, and the second, more significant, phase continued. While challenges were faced with materials supply, the first train has now been returned to service and the second train has been lifted. The project has supported mitigations needed to keep the trains in operation until heavy overhaul takes place. A competitive tender to fix the underframe cracking issues has been issued and an investigation into extending the life of train management systems is under way. Delivery of these works is important to improve the recent service performance challenges on the Jubilee line.

[roman80]

Is there a protocol for which train runs are cancelled given the lack of stock? Is it time for a special timetable? Very common to see westbound gaps of seven and eight minutes between 530pm and 615pm from Canary Wharf of a weekday evening. Yesterday an eight minute gap followed by seven minutes was alleviated by it being a Friday and not earlier in the week. This causes issues at London Bridge and Waterloo also given the time of day.

[towerman]

Sometimes they cancel peak push ins that only do one or two rounders.

[Dstock7080]

Feb 25, 2023 15:44:35 GMT roman80 said:

Very common to see westbound gaps of seven and eight minutes between 530pm and 615pm from Canary Wharf of a weekday evening. Yesterday an eight minute gap followed by seven minutes was alleviated by it being a Friday and not earlier in the week.

Yesterday at 18.00 7 trains were cancelled for no Stock, 5 for no available Staff (from 57)

[Chris M]

Does that mean that if 100% of trains were available that 12 trains would have been cancelled for lack of staff? Or is it more complicated than that (e.g. a staff member is unavailable at Neasden because there wasn't an available train to get them there from Stratford?)

[jimbo]

"On 17th October 2019, fractures were identified on the longitudinal beams of the coupling system on a Jubilee Line train during a routine B Exam at Stratford Market Depot" ..... More than you can possibly want to know is included in the Formal Incident Report included in this FoI response here

[100andthirty]

There is also a case study of the cracking issue here:
www.railengineer.co.uk/managing-cracks-and-fractures-safely-on-trains/

[Colin]

Feb 25, 2023 18:36:53 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Yesterday at 18.00 7 trains were cancelled for no Stock, 5 for no available Staff (from 57)

Feb 26, 2023 7:36:23 GMT Chris M said:

Does that mean that if 100% of trains were available that 12 trains would have been cancelled for lack of staff? Or is it more complicated than that (e.g. a staff member is unavailable at Neasden because there wasn't an available train to get them there from Stratford?)

Whilst it's possible that a train cancelled by fleet may coincide nicely with a uncovered driving duty, it's absolutely not the case that all trains cancelled by fleet coincide with uncovered driving duties. It's most certainly not a common or routine occurrence if that's what you're implying.

Service control and train driver managers are sometimes consulted by fleet on which trains might be the best one's to cancel, but driver availability is only one of many reasons why a particular working is chosen. It might depend on where a given train stables (ie, keeping the rolling stock stabling at each location balanced), where other trains need to stable for routine maintenance activities, availability of spare drivers to cover uncovered duties, timetabling requirements, spreading gaps in the train service around rather than lumping them together, etc, etc

Ultimately there is a cost attributed to each cancelled train - currently measured as "lost customer hours" - and fleet or operations won't usually take the hit for the other party. In other words if a train is cancelled for no ok stock or no available driver, the reason given is usually the actual reason for the cancellation.

So in the example above it's more than likely the case that if 100% of trains were available, there'd just be the 5 cancelled due to no available staff.

[will]

Severe delays on the whole line tonight due to "train cancellations" those temporary fixes made in 2019 starting to fail badly at the moment? Will the service provided get progressively worse in the short term?

[roverlei]

This reminds me of that timeless quote from that late 90s series "This Life": London Underground apologises that your train is delayed due to late running". They should also play that on the Piccadilly line.

[roman80]

Service is clearly worse in the short term. Ten minutes gaps multiple times between 515pm and 615pm westbound in the past week. Canary Wharf is having to employ crowd control daily. At which point is tfl held to account for still saying minor delays? Tonight at 530pm at Canary Wharf there was an eleven minute gap and the westbound queue to board was up against the eastbound platform doors. Lying about the delays being minor is not acceptable on safety grounds alone. Well past the point a temporary timetable was introduced to minimise peak hour issues.

[trt]

TfL changed the criteria for the rainbow board a few years ago. I believe somewhere on the web someone created a page which still uses the old criteria.

[Chris M]

truetubestatus.com/ may be the site trt is thinking of.

[trt]

At least this evening they were announcing the delays were due to a shortage of trains instead of just leaving passengers guessing.

[tony]

Hello all!
So cracking has been an occuring problem ever since the early years of 7 car trains being introduced. You may or may not know, but the cause of the crackling is due to TfL adding concrete to their trailer cars to account for the unproportionate material weight of the trailer_2005 cars.

The reason the new 2005 96117 - 96125 units are not subjective to this is simply due to the nature that they all have the same density/weight of material.

Hopefully this clears up some confusion.

[DWS]

Mar 30, 2023 7:50:41 GMT tony said:

Hello all!
So cracking has been an occuring problem ever since the early years of 7 car trains being introduced. You may or may not know, but the cause of the crackling is due to TfL adding concrete to their trailer cars to account for the unproportionate material weight of the trailer_2005 cars.

The reason the new 2005 96117 - 96125 units are not subjective to this is simply due to the nature that they all have the same density/weight of material.

Hopefully this clears up some confusion.

I worked on the Jubillee Line during the 7 car project, all the added special trailers were built with the raft that carried the concrete block, the special trailers were added to the 6 car trains at Stratford Market Depot. The 4 new trains which came from Spain all ready had the concrete block on the special trailer cars.
The reason the 96117 -96125 units are not subject to the faults is because they are not as old as the rest of the Fleet on the Jubilee Line.

[tony]

Mar 30, 2023 9:44:44 GMT DWS said:

Mar 30, 2023 7:50:41 GMT tony said:

Hello all!
So cracking has been an occuring problem ever since the early years of 7 car trains being introduced. You may or may not know, but the cause of the crackling is due to TfL adding concrete to their trailer cars to account for the unproportionate material weight of the trailer_2005 cars.

The reason the new 2005 96117 - 96125 units are not subjective to this is simply due to the nature that they all have the same density/weight of material.

Hopefully this clears up some confusion.

I worked on the Jubillee Line during the 7 car project, all the added special trailers were built with the raft that carried the concrete block, the special trailers were added to the 6 car trains at Stratford Market Depot. The 4 new trains which came from Spain all ready had the concrete block on the special trailer cars.
The reason the 96117 -96125 units are not subject to the faults is because they are not as old as the rest of the Fleet on the Jubilee Line.

Ah, fair enough!