minimum service on the circle

[Chris M]

I've read somewhere (and I can't remember where, but it might have been the TfL website) that the most significant reason the circle line hasn't yet been restored is a rolling stock availability (although it did also say some staff were (imho perfectly understandably) very traumatised by the events of 7th July, and weren't currently fit to return to work).

Now if I have understood the rolling stock problems correctly, then trains are going to become available when they've had maintenence carried out on them. To me this makes it seem likely that the number of available units will be gradually increasing, and so at some point a critiical number of available units will be available and a viable reduced servcie would be operable.

I know b*gger all about operating a railway basically, but for something like the circle line it seems that the number of trains per hour is the critical thing for whether it is worth running a service. For example, if you had a quarter of the units available (and enough drivers to drive them) then you could (in theory at least) run the network with a quarter the frequency - i.e. 4 tph instead of 16 tph. Similarly if 50% of the units are available then 8 tph should in theory be possible. Now, 4ph for the circle line seems to me like it would result in massive overcrowding and so it wouldn't be safe/worthwhile running that service. However if you had the capability to run 15tph instead of 16tph then I'd expect it would be worth running that service.

My main question is thefore, what is the critical figure to make it safe and worthwile running a service?
But I suppose I have made so many assumptions in this I need to get clarification on - is there a 1:1 relationship between the amount of rolling stock available and the tph capability (e.g. does 50% of the trains mean 50% of the service is possible) - assuming there are sufficient drivers? Is it likely that LU would run a reduced service or just wait until they can run a full one? Will the pool of available trains be gradually increasing, or is there something I've misuderstood or overlooked? Have I even understood the current situation correctly?

Lots of questions I know, but I'm curious as to these things. Obviously I don't expect anyone to reveal anything they shouldn't, but something like a "there is something else involved but I can't tell you what it is" would be useful to aid my understanding.

Thanks
Chris

[q8]

I don't qiite understand your question Chris but I wll try to answer briefly. I should not think there is minimum level of service other than zero. If there is stock available then trains will run albeit with long gaps. When we had the Acton works strike years back they had one running each way at times and a full serice at others.

[Harsig]

There is a plan to introduce a three train per hour Circle line service in the peak hours only in the very near future (In fact mere hours after I write this).
Last night there was a train carrying out rusty rail moves in the Aldgate and Gloucester Road/High St Ken areas, the only places on the Circle line that have not seen a train since July 7th.

[Colin]

The problem with rolling stock is that they have to be maintained at set intervals, which has been a problem because access to their depot wasn't possible for a while. Also we're now 2 C stock units short because of damage/police possesion.

It is also true that there is a large staff absence due to sickness at the moment. These two problems together mean it's difficult to predict what sort of service will be possible. Certainly the peaks will be the priority.

Much as we hate the Circles, it will be nice to have them back.

Also the Piccadilly is expected to have full service from today.

[citysig]

awkward42 said:

I've read somewhere (and I can't remember where, but it might have been the TfL website)...

Or one of my recent postings - I have made plenty of mention in lots of places about the services.

In answer to most of your questions (some of which have already been answered, but I will go over them again.)

The last of the rolling stock out-stabled during the closure reached it's "home" depot of Hammersmith on Tuesday evening. The fact that all the stock is there does not necessarily mean work can crack on 24-hours a day. Some trains may require more than an exam. Don't forget that right up until the events of 7th July we were running a normal service, and with that come normal defects! Many of these will require fixing before an exam can take place. Plus there are only facilities to perform one thorough exam at any one time.

As for overall availability. Just because, for instance, 20 trains are available, does not mean we will run 20 trains. It would leave very little slack should one train become defective and is withdrawn from service. You would then have no replacement and have to suffer gaps in the service for the remainder of the day. Better to make a timetable which uses 75-80% of your fleet, running an albeit reduced but reliable service.

There are rules about running a "minimum service." However, the mathematical equations to decide it would stretch to many pages Basically, decisions are based on predicted passenger loadings and alternatives. Providing a train every half an hour to packed platforms is pointless and could be dangerous. Providing a slightly more regular service, coupled with other services will at least keep people moving, and although many will not catch a direct train, the majority will at least be able to reach other stations where alternative routes can be taken.

Currently, with the H&C and District running full services, there are alternatives for Circle Line customers. Publicity has made it clear that the Circles will run during peak hours only. The sensible conclusion is that nobody should plan their day's travel around the Circle service. Therefore, to run the "additional" peak-hour Circles will boost the service as a whole.

Passenger numbers are still slightly lower than normal, either due to summer holidays or people avoiding the network.

I do not think I would be out of line in saying that the running of just the peak-hour Circles is more of a "political" move than anything else. Four weeks to the day since the first attacks, and LU can at least stand with the rest of London and re-affirm the message that we will not be beaten. To get back to virtually normal services on the whole network in just 4 weeks is quite an achievement, when you consider the carnage that occured.

[Deleted]

colin said:

Much as we hate the Circles, it will be nice to have them back.

The trouble is with the Circle is that with all the stations it serves, anotehr line(s) goes through the stations. It has also shown now, with no Circle Line service, people can still get to the places they ant to, allbeit on busier trains.

I think the events of 7/7 and the impact on the circle line will make a major impact on desisions made as a result of the SSr upgrade that is due to be implemented in a few years time.

Makes you think; if you were to upgrade the TPH on lines such as the District, would there really be a need for the Circle Line to still operate at all?

[q8]

It has also shown now, with no Circle Line service, people can still get to the places they want to, allbeit on busier trains.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proof enough that they can safely be done away with. They were only enabled in the first place in 1884 because the "Huntin' and Shootin' wallahs at Westminster wanted to have a quick way to get to the northern rail termini on friday afternoons.

The present mob of gasbags and useless mouths at that antiquated establshment also like them so that they can run back to Scotland at weekends and get away from actually working (What they call work that is. The rest of us class it as parasitism) A better reason for the abolition of Circles I have yet to hear.

[Deleted]

They were only enabled in the first place in 1884 because the "Huntin' and Shootin' wallahs at Westminster wanted to have a quick way to get to the northern rail termini on friday afternoons.


Umm, not quite. The managements of the Met and the District hated each other and Parliament reckoned, probably rightly, that they would not co-operate to run a Circle service (although they said they would) unless it was required by law.

EDIT > That's exactly what I meant in the first paragraph. The Met and District did not want it so Paliarment made them have it for precisely the reason I stated.

[citysig]

sydneynick said:

Umm, not quite. The manegements of the Met and the District hated each other and Parliament reckoned, probably rightly, that they would not co-operate to run a Circle service (although they said they would) unless it was required by law.

That always brings a smile to my face when I remember that fact. The hatred (I think) has gone, but, how shall I put this diplomatically. There is still a lot of reluctance on the co-operation side.

Whether or not the law still exists, various schemes that have been bounced around over recent years all seem to have hit some sort of wall (a couple of those radical thinking managers also "moved on" after their plans were stopped... )

[Deleted]

I may be being naive, but I was under the impression that the Met and District had been under the same management since 1933. Indeed, the Underground Group was so triumphant at getting its hands on the Met that line diagrams of the mid-30s showed all the subsurface lines in green. I have read that there was talk of amalgamating the District and Met and running services such as Uxbridge to Uxbridge via most of the Circle. (This was before the Picc extensions, so it was then OK for District drivers to turn right at Hangar Lane.)

These ideas failed because they just added even more complexity, and added to the knock-on effects of delays. I suspect that the same would apply to the more recent bright ideas about changing the Circle service.

[piccadillypilot]

sydneynick said:

I may be being naive, but I was under the impression that the Met and District had been under the same management since 1933.

Under one management is one thing, of the same mind is something totally different. In this instance sufficiently different as to not be on the same planet. ;D

Even now the people on the Met have the idea that they are in some way superior to those on other lines. Strange but true (with a few exceptions of course).

[citysig]

piccadillypilot said:

Even now the people on the Met have the idea that they are in some way superior to those on other lines. Strange but true (with a few exceptions of course).

;)Don't even get me started as to why we are. I could sit here all day and real off the reasons (and probably be very quickly slung off this District Line forum ;D )

[Phil]

Why be Surprised? It is no different from the total unity and mutual respect shown by GWR and SR to each other after nationalisation.
removes tongue from cheek.
GWR (north of London) always thought they were superior to all others, especially SR (south of London ) and didn't let a little thing like common management get in the way.
This was despite the fact that SR could changes engines at Salisbury in 3 minutes whilst GWR (anywhere) seldom took less than 8.

[suncloud]

Came down to London today. Circle seemed to be running when I came through around lunchtime (at a reduced level). Is that right?

[Colin]

It's been running a full service since Monday!!

[Deleted]

colin said:

It's been running a full service since Monday!!

Yep, and on every trip since then, I've been stuck behind one

[trainopd78]

jim said:

colin said:

It's been running a full service since Monday!!

Yep, and on every trip since then, I've been stuck behind one

Tell me about it. Back to late running on the District again!!

There are still a few gaps in the Circle service but not too many. 202 and 215 were definately not running yesterday and no doubt a few others but its 80% there.

[suncloud]

trainopd78 said:

There are still a few gaps in the Circle service but not too many. 202 and 215 were definately not running yesterday and no doubt a few others but its 80% there.

I saw a 11 min wait for the next Circle on one platform, so whether that's just normal service or a gap it's probably quite hard to tell. There was also a C-stock in the siding at Edgware Road when I passed

[citysig]

trainopd78 said:

Tell me about it. Back to late running on the District again!!

There are still a few gaps in the Circle service but not too many. 202 and 215 were definately not running yesterday and no doubt a few others but its 80% there.

Funny you should mention late running on the District returning. When the H&C was resumed, everything ran well. Now the Circle is back, we have returned to "losing" the H&Cs east of Whitechapel. How can that be.

We have run with roughly 2 cancellations on each side - though this does change. I can tell you which outer-rails were out, but it's pure guess-work as to what was cancelled on each trip on the inner. Not too much info coming from a certain control room.

As for any junction working at our end, until the political dust settles, the Circles are getting a certain amount of priority (within reason of course.) However, I have not witnessed any District being delayed in the Aldgate area on any afternoon/evening since Monday. I did have a 5 minute delay caused by a District sitting back at OB3700 on Tuesday though.

[citysig]

suncloud said:

I saw a 11 min wait for the next Circle on one platform, so whether that's just normal service or a gap it's probably quite hard to tell. There was also a C-stock in the siding at Edgware Road when I passed

That kind of gap is one of the smaller gaps running around - with an 8-minute frequency that means the next train was running 3 minutes late. There are 14-16 minute gaps, though careful regulating has helpled balance these at certain times of the day.

The C-stock is the booked service spare, kept in Edgware Road siding.

[Colin]

Well like i've said before, much as we hate em - it's nice to see them back, given the circumstances. And i've been fotunate this week - when i've had one in front it's actually moved quite fast! (perhaps they're running out of service ;D ;D).

[trainopd78]

colin said:

Well like i've said before, much as we hate em - it's nice to see them back, given the circumstances. And i've been fotunate this week - when i've had one in front it's actually moved quite fast! (perhaps they're running out of service ;D ;D).

No the novelty's just not worn off yet! ;D I've noticed a few crawling around. I was waiting at vic on Tuesday and 201 crawled in at a snails pace and exited the same. Then 203 came in. It was this ones last rounder. 202 was cancelled, so there was 16 mins worth of trains within 2!! Just goes to show how much this one was dragging it's heels. ECT hadn't had a westbound from the city for nigh on 10 mins!!