'severe delays due to communication equipment'

[Deleted]

as the title says the circle has suffered twice at least in the last week because of faulty communication equipment. Is this because of the connect radios? Does that line have to close when the radios are down. The tube lines do, I think.

[Deleted]

rob said:

as the title says the circle has suffered twice at least in the last week because of faulty communication equipment. Is this because of the connect radios? Does that line have to close when the radios are down. The tube lines do, I think.

With the SSLs:
It's because, even though it's not deep tube tunnels, they are still tunnels, and it would prohibit contact with the L/C etc, in an emergency.

[ Please, anyone, correct any wrong bits of info .... ]

[DWS]

The Circle Line does not have Connect Radio yet.

[Deleted]

This isn't Connect going wrong (it's only operational on the East London) - it's the existing radio system, which is on its last legs. Since last July, trains cannot run in service on any line without a working radio.

[ribaric]

Since last July, trains cannot run in service on any line without a working radio.

Not even if double man... whoops! "Double staffing" is used?

[Deleted]

ribaric said:

Since last July, trains cannot run in service on any line without a working radio.

Not even if double man... whoops! "Double staffing" is used?

Nope. OSN48 states that you have to detrain and run empty through the affected area.

Connect Radio is due to the working on SSR by the end of the year, as they are coming to fit the equipment to the cabins soon.

[Deleted]

how do they like it on the East London Line?

[Deleted]

rob said:

how do they like it on the East London Line?

Its gone down quite well from what i hear!

[Deleted]

what are the advantages and if there are any disadvantages. Is it a digital system and will there still be those 'blackspots' on the district

[Deleted]

rob said:

what are the advantages and if there are any disadvantages. Is it a digital system and will there still be those 'blackspots' on the district

Its more up to date. It will be a cab secure system so you can do a lot more with it, as you can with the current Central Line Radio. With Connect, not only the LC will have Transmitting equipment. DMTs, Stations and Cabins will have it too.

It will make my job much easier, particually at a time of service disruption.

[Deleted]

Has the ELL acted as a test bed for it? Will it still play the whole conversations on that channel or will it be silent with a flashing light or test noise? Is the clarity better, as the radio is used for announcments from LC in emergencies as well aren't they. Are the tube lines getting it and what is the timetable?

[Deleted]

rob said:

Has the ELL acted as a test bed for it? Will it still play the whole conversations on that channel or will it be silent with a flashing light or test noise? Is the clarity better, as the radio is used for announcments from LC in emergencies as well aren't they. Are the tube lines getting it and what is the timetable?

Dont know. But it isnt like the odl system, the driver only hears messages for him / her and or general calls to all trains. Days of hearing everything is over.

It will still have a confidence tone i believe

The clarity is better and because its cab secure, you will be able to authorise trains past signals etc etc

As for timetables, dont know...

[citysig]

metapprentice said:

Its more up to date. It will be a cab secure system so you can do a lot more with it, as you can with the current Central Line Radio. With Connect, not only the LC will have Transmitting equipment. DMTs, Stations and Cabins will have it too.

It will make my job much easier, particually at a time of service disruption.

I like this talk in the present and future tenses and the feel of optimism.

Almost makes it feel like it's all going to happen in the near future....

[Deleted]

citysig said:

I like this talk in the present and future tenses and the feel of optimism.

I AM sorry that my grammer isnt as good as it obviously should be!

[Deleted]

Supposed to be across the combine Aug 2007.

[Colin]

metapprentice said:

[The clarity is better and because its cab secure, you will be able to authorise trains past signals

I hope you are referring only to Signal operators - but in any case, are you sure about that? That would require a rule change as we can only accept authority by handsignal, face to face communication or over a 'fixed line' telephone. Despite the supposed secure aspect that connect offers, it's still basically a radio / mobile phone.

[c5]

There will be a "cab secure radio" element like on National Rail, though yes it will require a WRM change. Talking of which the new Service Control job title changes havent even gone through yet

Having said that, they are still deciding on which function to give to all the different user groups talk/text etc

[Deleted]

colin said:

I hope you are referring only to Signal operators - but in any case, are you sure about that? That would require a rule change as we can only accept authority by handsignal, face to face communication or over a 'fixed line' telephone. Despite the supposed secure aspect that connect offers, it's still basically a radio / mobile phone.

They can authorise trains past signals on the central line via the train radio, which is the same system near enough as Connect. If they dont with connect, surely thats taking a backward step??

[trainopd78]

metapprentice said:

colin said:

I hope you are referring only to Signal operators - but in any case, are you sure about that? That would require a rule change as we can only accept authority by handsignal, face to face communication or over a 'fixed line' telephone. Despite the supposed secure aspect that connect offers, it's still basically a radio / mobile phone.

They can authorise trains past signals on the central line via the train radio, which is the same system near enough as Connect. If they dont with connect, surely thats taking a backward step??

Being able to apply the rule via radio is a mid-long term goal, but the safety case has to be proved, and the reliability of the system is a large part of this. Once the system has proved itself, wheels will be set in motion. From what I gather it could be anything from 3 to 5 years to enable this goal to be achieved.

*salesman mode*

The connect system will have many positive features, like an audible system (as opposed to Norman Collier), multiple caller groups so we can technically contact station staff, signallers, depots, line controllers etc from our cab. Mayday alarms with hot mic facility will also be available to enable all of our staff to have safer working conditions. A one to one caller facility so we can call any other radio on the combine and most importantly a secured patching facility so that 2 handsets can be linked on its own frequency to aid push outs etc.
Drivers will get hand portable radios so that when we leave the cab, we will still have communications with the outside world.

The downsides are, being a digital system is more prone to shutdowns (although it cannot be worse than the current analogue system) and is initially more difficult to use.

Overall I am quietly optomistic about the system, although I do forsee teething problems, as with any new system.

[Colin]

metapprentice said:

They can authorise trains past signals on the central line via the train radio, which is the same system near enough as Connect. If they dont with connect, surely thats taking a backward step??

Only because the line controllers are the signallers, i'd imagine. The District controller, for example, cannot do it as she/he is not in control of the signalling system - especially when they move to Baker Street.

I accept that it's going possible for the signaller to authorise using connect - but i'm yet to be convinced it's secure enough to be considered the first option when needing such authority.

[citysig]

metapprentice said:

I AM sorry that my grammer isnt as good as it obviously should be!

That weren't wot I woz gettin at woz it.

As is obvious from yours and subsequent posts, as far as you are all aware Connect is alive and thriving.

Now take what I said before, grammer or not, and see what I was really getting at (except that I thought a "hint" would be enough.)

As for what the signallers may or may not be able to do if / when it is installed:

Given that I control a fair number of them on a daily basis and don't have the first clue of what we might be able to do with Connect, gives you some idea of the information given out so far.

Now let me see. The "Going Live" date, with no leniency, excuses, or waffle, for Connect on the H&C/Met was.... May 2006.

Ok then.

[Colin]

It strikes me, citysig, that perhaps you may not have been given as much information as the rest of us - either that or you really are the most cynical person I know.

Yes, connect is six years late, probably well overated and won't do half the stuff they say it will (hence my earlier caution) - but you and your immediate colleagues (signallers) are the people that will probably benefit most from connect. Currently, if you need to speak to a train op, you either have to hold a signal at danger or pass messages through other people by phone. Are you not looking forward to simply calling the train op direct, rather than holding up the service?

[towerman]

I know it's slightly different in a depot,but at SMD it's always been in the procedure that we authorise trains past signals at danger via train radio.

[Deleted]

CIRCLE LINE (CLOCKWISE): Minor delays are occurring due to congestion at Edgware Road. Any thoughts on that citysig?

[c5]

rob said:

CIRCLE LINE (CLOCKWISE): Minor delays are occurring due to congestion at Edgware Road. Any thoughts on that citysig?

That's because of delayed departures because of crew reliefs/pick ups and earlier non-availability of staff

[citysig]

colin said:

It strikes me, citysig, that perhaps you may not have been given as much information as the rest of us - either that or you really are the most cynical person I know.

Or maybe that I have been given that little bit of information that the rest of you haven't.

Me? Cynical?

Whatever the overall impression should be that I tend to portray, there is an awful lot in my working life that I have pushed through and got done - and silenced many a real cynic that I work with. Don't forget that within the walls of this forum I have posted many a time in response to people generally knocking the railway and it's components.

Connect is unlikely to be installed at Baker Street this year. If it does it will be by some good fortune. The space allocated for the equipment within the desks has yet to be agreed, and now a room-wide refurbishment (which I campaigned for incidentally) will take priority - the powers that be finally realising that it's all very well having a posh radio system, but how can we move the service effectively.

There is a bit more to the story, but far be it for me to post every single detail here.

As for it benefitting signalling staff, in all honesty it will benefit us as much as Trackernet has - that is everyone around us will say what a superb system it is, and how it has turned the fortunes of the company around, but won't understand what a burden it is. Apart from signalling failures - where at least for now it appears that we will have to speak to you over the phone - there really isn't any other time that we need to speak to train ops. Short-tripping is normally advised by the controller and when being held train ops generally either speak to the controller or use the phone at the signal at which they're standing.

Did you know for example that a huge number of staff can now see the whole of the Met line on Trackernet. Apart from leaving the desk position and logging into the Intranet, we cannot.

We will effectively take on control of the train radio. That means one huge extra task on top of what we already do.

Now I await those who are bound to refute everything I have said and explain how the Connect system will be in place within the next year (or much more).

[citysig]

rob said:

CIRCLE LINE (CLOCKWISE): Minor delays are occurring due to congestion at Edgware Road. Any thoughts on that citysig?

Some, bearing in mind what actually caused the congestion (as C5 has stated). But I wouldn't publish them here.

[mandgc]

Authority to Pass Signals at Danger.

Is it not possible to devise a system on a Common Radio to give this Authority to a certain Train? ie:

"What is your Train Number?
"What is your name Driver?
"What is your Location and Signal Number ?".

"Driver Smith, On Train 123 at Covent Garden, After repeating the Message back to me -You are authorised to Pass Signal A456 at Stop and proceed cautiously as far as the line is clear or to the Next Signal.

If Driver Jones misunderstands this message then Sack him on the spot.

A somewhat similar system is used to pass Train Orders underTrain Order Working.

[trainopd78]

We can already pass Automatic stop signals "under rule" on our own authority, as long as certain procedural steps have been taken first. The problem lies with Semi's and X signals.

The problem with passing safety critical messages via the current radio system is that its not secure. Anybody could tap in and give that message. That's why that message must be passed via a secure means. With our current radios, its not unknown to pick up other lines too and even worse, local cab firms. Its just far to risky.

[yellowsignal]

Connect is a Tetra-system, we use the same in the emergency services over here. It went over-budget and over-time but now that it's up and running it's a huge improvement over the old radios.
Reception is great, we can talk to anyone in the entire country and a little bit beyond it and it sounds like they are next to you.
People (Radio sets actually) can be linked to a single group for any purpose you like, from emergencies to normal operations.
Another advantage is that it's encrypted so nobody except those authorized to use in a certain group can listen in. Everybody with a live radio in the group is visible to whoever controls the network.

Because it's digital you can know that train X is talking to the signaller at Y cabin and the conversation can be recorded digitally at a central location.

mandgc said:

Authority to Pass Signals at Danger.

Is it not possible to devise a system on a Common Radio to give this Authority to a certain Train? ie:

"What is your Train Number?
"What is your name Driver?
"What is your Location and Signal Number ?".

"Driver Smith, On Train 123 at Covent Garden, After repeating the Message back to me -You are authorised to Pass Signal A456 at Stop and proceed cautiously as far as the line is clear or to the Next Signal.

If Driver Jones misunderstands this message then Sack him on the spot.

A somewhat similar system is used to pass Train Orders underTrain Order Working.

If you ever listen to www.railroadradio.net you hear controllers in the USA giving a traincrew permission to do this or that with a track warrant. This warrant has a number, i assume it is generated by computer and every permission is logged.
The controller gives the number to the traincrew who fill out a form or whatever and they read the number and the permission back to the controller who then acknowledges it again before the train can start moving.