Paddington (H+C) question...

[Deleted]

Hi,

Noticed something on a trip into London yesterday that I thought I'd ask about. On the approach to Paddington H+C from Edgware Road, I noticed what looked like an old running tunnel disappearing into the gloom just as the line curves slightly at the eastern end of the platform. In a fit of curiousity, I thought I'd ask if anyone here knew anything about it.

Also, a vague "hellooo" to the c/w circle line driver who got to Aldgate and - apparently - closed the doors without checking the stick. Certainly, there were ~30s between the doors closing, reopening, points changing, and stick clearing...

-jdp

[Deleted]

I believe it used to lead to a goods yard. There is also a space (BR platform is cut away for clearance) for what must have been a crossover between the WB H&C and the BR tracks to the east end of the WB platform.

As for your driver at Aldgate, the SPAD figures are through the roof at the minute. Was looking in the noticecase at ERD and I see periodical SPAD "targets" have been well exceeded. Which brings me on to the strange phenomenon that, assuming the period target for SPADS for ERD is 36 for example (i dont know the exact figure but its something like that), and 36 people hit a signal, then by default the line is performing well! Don't want to tempt fate (as you'll probably read later that I went out today and hit one), but I don't see how 36 SPADS can be seen as acceptable - surely the target should always be 0!

Of course we could go into the realms of outrageous rostering (3 circles on the spin without a break - I know it used to be 4 but 3 is still a complete brain drain and very difficult to keep focused, hence virtually every PNR coming on the 3rd circle up there), dead early turns with maximum running time on the 2nd half when you are knackered etc, sighting of signals - Notting Hill to Bayswater OR always get me, especially when there is one coming towards you. The quality of training and selection process, apparently Reed consultants pick the train crews these days after they've done a roll play about tickets or dot matrixes or something, all very relevant, and actually quite frightening that LUL think this is a good idea. A few of the people i've seem coming into the grade are in no way suitable for it and don't seem to be a ble to grasp the level of responsibility it entails, while others that are fail a stupid roll play about something unrelated to the job! Madness.

[Deleted]

RE: Spads; Could it be that some operators using the tripcock's as a excuse for spadding. EG, they know the tripcock will "save them"? (I know a SPAD is never a good thing, an I do not wish to cause any grief by saying this).

RE: Roleplay; As for role play. I think railway positions rely to heavy on it myself. If your going to say no to someone because they did something that they wouldn't of done with the right training (which they give anyway), and in conditions that they wouldn't in "real-life" deal with (i.e. being watched by the people who are judging your every move & who will decide whether you get the job or not), then surely it favours those with very high self confidence and those who can act more than anything!?

[mandgc]

I believe the spur East of Paddington Suburban was a Loco siding for former Met. electric locos waiting to replace GWR steam locos on through trains from the Main Line to Liverpool St. or Aldgate. These through trains were withdrawn at the beginning of the War in 1939.

In 1938 four Met electric locos ran coupled from Neasden to Baker Street 'light engine'- three continuing to Paddington to await the morning through trains.

[Oracle]

I am wracking my brain to try and recollect where the crossover from the former GWR to the Met (H&C) was. This was of course used by GWR goods trains [to Smithfields?] in the City and used condensing Pannier Tanks. Did they not also work the CWL to Snow Hill? Anyhow, I am sure that the #-over was west of Paddington Suburban although a recent aerial photo published in BACKTRACK I think it was with a 6-car O Stock did not seem to show definitively the connection.

[Tom]

vbn said:

RE: Spads; Could it be that some operators using the tripcock's as a excuse for spadding. EG, they know the tripcock will "save them"? (I know a SPAD is never a good thing, an I do not wish to cause any grief by saying this).

It's not an acceptable excuse, but it has been used. This has contributed to one signal on the Bakerloo getting a total of 61 SPADs in the last 13 years.

[Deleted]

Completely agree its not acceptable, but was just wondering if it may be what some drivers think when they get ready to depart without checking the signal!

[Tom]

I think it's a combination of having a lot to do in a short space of time, human factors in that not all of it is in the same field of vision, and in some cases the LU training.

The mantra for platforms used to be SODS - Sigal, OPO, Doors, Signal, but now an extra O has been added so the last thing to look at is the OPO, and I wonder if that shift of attention away from the signal is a good idea or not.

[Colin]

Right, let's joint the thread drift...... ;D ;D ;D ;D.........

Speaking for myself, as a driver, I see the trip cock as a device fitted to ensure my, and my passengers, safety should I attempt to take my train into a dangerous situation.....accidentally or otherwise.

Yes, it's my back up - but a SPAD is a SPAD and no professional driver out there ever wants to have one. Unfortunately though, we are only human, and mistakes do happen. I think any driver would agree that it's the best way of making our (LUL) signalling system safe - but the pride thing of having a low or zero SPAD record is much more important - so I think the suggestion that drivers place too much reliance on it is wrong.

[Deleted]

They seem to have given drivers a lot more to do recently I've also noticed. With the reduction of lamping/waving out, lack of staff in busy stations at busy times (Chancery Lane for example was packed in the evening rush hour and there was not one member of staff on the platforms!), and generally more checks & buttons to press, it would not surprise me that there is an increase in SPAD's.

Although it is still no excuse, like you said COLIN, the operators are only human and I'm not suggesting in an way that they are placing to much reliance on tripcocks, just merely wondering if it could be an alternative reason to the above.

[Deleted]

Personally, in my 5 years as a driver I have closed the doors while the signal is still red on many occasions. But, following SODS / SODOS / whatever, checking the signal again before moving off, has always saved me!

[Phil]

The most frightening thing for a driver is to have a signal 'go back' on them (to danger, after they have first sighted it at clear). Although an overrun here would not necessarily be counted as a SPAD, it unsettles you for miles afterwards, even after you have been told for certain it DID go back and you did not misread it. That's how seriously conscientious drivers take SPADs.

(And yes, I've had 3 go back on me at various times in my time on the WSR).

[Tom]

rbruce1314 said:

Although an overrun here would not necessarily be counted as a SPAD

Errr... Phil... It would, as a cat B SPAD.

It happened once to a train full of IRSE Members on the Great Central!

[loughtonsiding]

oracle said:

I am wracking my brain to try and recollect where the crossover from the former GWR to the Met (H&C) was. This was of course used by GWR goods trains [to Smithfields?] in the City and used condensing Pannier Tanks. Did they not also work the CWL to Snow Hill? Anyhow, I am sure that the #-over was west of Paddington Suburban although a recent aerial photo published in BACKTRACK I think it was with a 6-car O Stock did not seem to show definitively the connection.

At that time (and until late 1967) the Met had use of four platforms (13-16), shared with WR suburban services. There was a scissors crossover to the country end of the point where the Up and Down lines split to pass either side of the two island platforms, and a trailing crossover at the London end.

Interestingly, locos and units working onto the electrified tracks (including condensing tanks working to Smithfield) had to have modified ATC equipment, the contact shoe of which could be latched up clear of the negative rail. Special ramps were provided at Subway Jcn to latch/unlatch the shoes.

As far as I know, GW/WR workings were to Smithfield only - their locos didn't work towards the Southern via the Widened Lines.

[Oracle]

Thanks LS!

[Deleted]

Maybe that's why t/ops in Japan are trained to talk to themselves through every signal and speed limit - to keep awake...

[Colin]

Calling out signal aspects is a good method - I did it for a while and it's improved my awareness no end.

[Deleted]

Yes but anyone sitting close to the J door is likely to think the driver is a nutter and run off in terror ;D

[Deleted]

has anybody seen the SPAD video with the Bakerloo Line bloke doing it? "greengreengreengreengreengreengreengreengreenRED!" don't think it's just the punters that would thin you were mad! ;D

[Phil]

Another thing gone from double-manning days (on the mainline at least). One member of crew would 'call' each aspect to the other (didn't matter which): not only safety but a reminder (if green) that the driver could 'get a gee up' if he needed to. There were even unofficial 'contests' to see which could sight the board earliest..........

[Deleted]

tfc said:

Yes but anyone sitting close to the J door is likely to think the driver is a nutter and run off in terror ;D

It'd be no more disconcerting than the t/op I had a while back who started singing rather ... interesting songs to himself as we made our way through the centre of London. I'd far rather have an observant if slightly odd-sounding t/op than hit sticks...

Here in South Wales, police-trained response drivers are trained to give a commentary whilst driving on a response - not for the benefit of anyone else, but just to make sure they've seen everything ... made driving with a friend a little monotonous after a while

-jdp

[Deleted]

tee hee reminds me of something that happened to me some years ago, when my train radio got stuck on transmit and the controller got about 5 mins of me singing nonsense songs to myself before someone was dispatched to meet me and ask me to trip and reset my radio MCB....... I was embarrassed for all of 5 mins before I saw the funny side.

[Colin]

When I say calling out, I don't mean shouting!! ;D ;D ;D ;D

No I say 'em quietly to myself, but in such a way as to ensure I have registered what I'm seeing - I spose it's a bit like the example given by Jon regarding the Police response drivers.

[mandgc]

Electric Loco Working.

Futher to my Reply #3, the Light loco detached at Baker St. continued on to Aldgate to await the arrival of the first hauled train.

I have been able to trace the following through trains from the GWR:

1922- 5 in morning.
1937- 4 in morning, (4 Saturday.)
2 midday,Saturday.
1939- 5 in morning, 4 in evening.

They all carried passengers both ways except 4 evening 1939 trains which ran empty to Liverpool St or Aldgate.The GWR trains terminated at Liverpool St. or Aldgate bay platforms as did the Met hauled trains.. After withdrawal of the through GW trains Met loco hauled trains for the Aylesbury line all terminated in Liv.St. bay platform.