|
Post by allchange on Dec 14, 2005 12:42:51 GMT
In the last 6 days I must have spent over an hour overall at Arnos Grove, and I have noticed that they are now using Platform 3 to terminate trains, more than platform 2, which I thought it always has been Also, I have noticed that, based on 2 experiences, sometimes a train that is not that busy and is heading for Cockfosters, will stop at Arnos Grove and let the busier train depart first Any reasons why these are happening. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by setttt on Dec 14, 2005 13:07:29 GMT
In the last 6 days I must have spent over an hour overall at Arnos Grove, and I have noticed that they are now using Platform 3 to terminate trains, more than platform 2, which I thought it always has been I'm not sure what you mean exactly. As you know, Arnos has three through roads, the centre one having a platform either side (I assume these are numbered 2 & 3, I must admit I can't remember despite visiting Arnos recently). When an EB terminates in this road, the driver opens the doors on the EB side to let passengers off, and then opens the doors on the WB side to pick up passengers waiting to go west.
|
|
Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
|
Post by Phil on Dec 14, 2005 14:17:33 GMT
Assuming David is talking about reversers using the 'eastbound' platform regularly, there is nothing new in that. When I were a lad they were often doing that, much to the annoyance of the punters. Sometimes it was to get them stabled, but more often than that it just happened.
It would sometimes go on for a couple of weeks, or 6 months, or whatever but I never did find out the reason.
Of course, if the service gets disrupted and two reversers appear at once, the second would then have to use the far platform. Now if the next Cockfosters is in before the second reverser departs, it can only use the centre road..............and so on until the regulator has both roads free again
|
|
|
Post by allchange on Dec 14, 2005 15:25:03 GMT
As far as I can remember, I've always got off on the middle platform when the train was terminating at Arnos, except for twice in the last week?
Also, how often do trains reverse at Arnos, as, from what I've seen, its seems fair to say, in the daytime, its 1 in every four, which does seem to be quite a few, concidering you have Wood Green sidings a few miles up the line, and Oakwood and Cockfosters a few miles down!?
|
|
Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
|
Post by Phil on Dec 14, 2005 15:49:44 GMT
No idea now - ask Seth.
In my day it used to be Arnos, Cockfosters, Arnos, Wood Green.
I gather the Wood Greens have (virtually ) gone, so there must presumably be more Cockfosters
|
|
|
Post by allchange on Dec 14, 2005 16:21:41 GMT
Oh no, Wood Greens haven't gone! I've been on a few in the last year that have suddenly terminated at Wood Green. I think they use it more as a "getting back on track" reversing point and not an actual siding.?
|
|
DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,418
|
Post by DWS on Dec 14, 2005 16:25:35 GMT
Oh no, Wood Greens haven't gone! I've been on a few in the last year that have suddenly terminated at Wood Green. I think they use it more as a "getting back on track" reversing point and not an actual siding.? The Term is called Service Recovery, the trains stay on the track, unless derailed. ;D
|
|
|
Post by allchange on Dec 14, 2005 16:40:20 GMT
lol. thats the one
|
|
|
Post by setttt on Dec 14, 2005 16:58:25 GMT
Oh no, Wood Greens haven't gone! I've been on a few in the last year that have suddenly terminated at Wood Green. I believe Phil meant that there are no longer any services which are scheduled to turn at Wood Green (although I think there's one or two odd turns that do, which are run, IIRC, to DMT's instructions). It is indeed used for service recovery though. I think they use it more as a "getting back on track" reversing point and not an actual siding.? It's a turnback siding - I doubt you would see anything stabled there on a regular basis.
|
|
|
Post by Tomcakes on Dec 14, 2005 17:20:22 GMT
AFAIK nothing is scheduled to turn at Wood Green but as said by Seth it's used for recovery.
As for Arnos, all trains from Northfields terminate there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2005 20:37:27 GMT
The tipping out times, slow entry speeds into the siding, and restrictive signalling renders Wood Green useless(ish) as a regular reversing point.
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,310
|
Post by Colin on Dec 15, 2005 10:49:08 GMT
Whilst I don't know that part of the picc all that well, I believe it is entirely to do with the reliability of the service. Wood Green involves tip out and sidings (is that right?), whereas Arnos is off a platform - which is better for the whole service. As mentioned, that also free's up Wood Green, should it be needed for service recovery.
It's always about the bigger picture when you consider a local arrangement.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2005 23:48:44 GMT
The signalling system at Arnos Grove has been ropey and dodgy for several years, and I am just waiting for it to be replaced.
All Arnos Grove reversers are timetabled to reverse via platform 2/3, the middle platform. Unfortunately, for over five years now in my experience, the system often defaults to putting trains to reverse into platform 1 – the far eastbound platform. This unintentional default was “unofficially” confirmed to me by someone who works on the Picc line there. As a result the operator has to always monitor every single Arnos Grove train to reverse in the middle road, which is not easy to do, every single time. As a result, trains that reverse in platform 1, when they pick up their westbound journey, all eastbound traffic has through Arnos Grove has to stop for roughly 2 minutes to allow the WB train to crossover the EB line from platform 1 to run to Bounds Green.
Someone also asked about how often trains reverse at Arnos Grove. In the timetable, usually during the MF daytime, and the busy weekend periods of 21TPH Central London service, you have 3TPH reversing at Arnos Grove, translating into an Arnos Grove train every 20 minutes. Usually they are Arnos Grove – Northfields shuttles. During the MF peak services, where you run 24TPH, you have 6TPH reversing at Arnos Grove, effectively a reverser every 10 minutes.
Of course this is all timetabled, and works OK, but cannot offer much flexibility for recovery. So when things do go wrong, which does happen on the Picc regularly(!), you have several Arnos Grove trains out of turn, you’re always stuck in congestion coming into Arnos Grove on the EB, and you have a few Wood Green reversers.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2005 23:59:21 GMT
Also, I have noticed that, based on 2 experiences, sometimes a train that is not that busy and is heading for Cockfosters, will stop at Arnos Grove and let the busier train depart first Any reasons why these are happening. I wanted to address this point also. I may have misunderstood you - but I think you are referring to the number of times you have arrived on an EB Cockfosters (or Oakwood) train at Arnos Grove, at any of the EB platforms, to find that there is already another Cockfosters train in the other EB platform - which always confuses and annoys the punters as you never know which one is departing first. My guess is that signal overlaps are the crunch here. I'm guessing that you can't have a Cockfosters train departing platform 1, with an EB train arriving in platform 2 (middle road), coz that platform 2 EB train could spad the station starter, and hit the EB train departing platform 1 at the trailing points even at slow speed, which is close to the station. So the signalling system will hold the EB train in platform 1 until the arrival in platform 2 has fully berthed, or let the EB platform 1 train depart to Southgate, while holding the EB train into platform 2 outside the station. And if you switch the platform numbers around, the same principle should apply. Man, its so difficult to explain without a diagram! Sorry if I've just confused...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2005 1:43:34 GMT
is the service is running to time, the programme machine is doing all the work , but if the railway is broken for any reason, then the signalman will over ride the programme machine and reverse trains in either platfrom depending on what trains he has on the approach , really pi$$ses the livestock off when they get of a reverser on the east bound platform only to get on the next eastbound that rolls into the middle, only to find out , that is a reverser as well,. if there is a good controller on at earls court ( and they are far and few between these days) then he will tell the signalman to try and keep the reversers on the eastbound platfrom at arnos to a minimum .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2005 14:44:07 GMT
Consecutive Arnos Grove reversers on the bounce - fairly common! Leaving the livestock on the platform wondering when there next train is due. Its less to do with the signal operator, more to do with the need of all the trains to be required to terminate at Arnos Grove during times of disruption to relieve train drivers whose duties are almost at the limit due to the disruption.
What makes things worse is that the so called new dot matrix indicators at Arnos Grove don't provide much useful information about when the next EB or WB train is due to depart and from which platform. They are just as misinformative as the previous train describers.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2005 4:53:55 GMT
What makes things worse is that the so called new dot matrix indicators at Arnos Grove don't provide much useful information about when the next EB or WB train is due to depart and from which platform. They are just as misinformative as the previous train describers. All they need are two words programmed into them... "FIRST TRAIN" Can't be that much strain on the system, surely?
|
|
|
Post by allchange on Dec 21, 2005 10:05:49 GMT
I can't seem to remember what they say now? Is it just something like "Good service is operating on the Piccadilly Line, and the time? I know they don't tell you when the next train is and its destination, which seems rather stupid!?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2005 18:14:12 GMT
I know they don't tell you when the next train is and its destination, which seems rather stupid!? Getting new DMIs to talk to old signalling systems is not quite as easy as you think, especially when it comes to predicting train movements that havn't been set.
|
|
|
Post by allchange on Dec 21, 2005 18:48:00 GMT
Oh, I see. I have noticed that the northern part of the line has not had the DMIs. I just thought it was down to lack of money or something else, not that they can't be used! I also didn't realise that they had been put in to do that in the long run! Thanks for clearing that up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2005 20:47:42 GMT
I can't seem to remember what they say now? Is it just something like "Good service is operating on the Piccadilly Line, and the time? I know they don't tell you when the next train is and its destination, which seems rather stupid!? They sometimes indicate the destination of the train in the platform, but thats only when the train arrives. It gives you no idea of when that train is due in, or indeed the status of the next two trains behind it. Its just that when they installed the DMIs in as part of the station refurbishment, they proudly boasted through press releases and METRO articles about the benefits of these DMIs but there isn't really any. But you may like to know that in the old heritage listed booking office in the middle of the atrium, they have a screen in there showing the same information as the DMIs do. And sometimes they mislead you in terms of which is the first train out of the station. What I have to resort to, is to find a vantage point on the platform where I can see both station starters for platform 3 and 4 (travelling westbound), and then when I see one of them showing green, I know thats my first WB train, and promptly run for that. More accurate than the DMIs!
|
|
|
Post by trainopd78 on Dec 23, 2005 21:05:09 GMT
What makes things worse is that the so called new dot matrix indicators at Arnos Grove don't provide much useful information about when the next EB or WB train is due to depart and from which platform. They are just as misinformative as the previous train describers. All they need are two words programmed into them... "FIRST TRAIN" Can't be that much strain on the system, surely? Why bother!! We have 2 sets at Tower Hill and a set at Mansion House westbound and most people don't bother to read them!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2005 22:18:33 GMT
Why bother!! We have 2 sets at Tower Hill and a set at Mansion House westbound and most people don't bother to read them!! At Brixton I've seen stupid people mistaking a DMI reading something along the lines of 1. Seven Sisters -> Plat 2 , for next train on platform 1.
|
|