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Post by lindsay on Jan 3, 2006 12:35:01 GMT
As they are going to use sidings to reverse and not the platforms, is this the best option? The trains will need to arrive at the platform, tip out go into the sidings and reverse there and then run back into the other platform. If they were reversed in the platforms a train could arrive in on platform and then depart when the next train arrives in the other platform.
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Jan 3, 2006 13:42:40 GMT
The BAA at Heathrow want Arriving passengers kept clear of Departing passengers, so there will be one platform for arrivals and one platform for departures at Terminal 5 on the Piccadilly Line.
Trains will reverse via sidings.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2006 14:52:18 GMT
When stephenk shows up, he will explain how a reversal via a siding is more efficient than reversal via the platform, in terms of potential tph throughput. The DLR uses the exact same setup at Bank and is able to reverse very high numbers of trains.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jan 3, 2006 15:19:42 GMT
Assuming HMRI would have a coronary if anyone was overcarried into the sidings, will they permanently station a couple of SAs there to sweep the trains as they come in?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2006 15:51:07 GMT
Assuming HMRI would have a coronary if anyone was overcarried into the sidings, will they permanently station a couple of SAs there to sweep the trains as they come in? I suspect that that will be the case.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jan 3, 2006 15:54:13 GMT
To get facts straight, surely the new HMRI will not be involved unless there's an incident (accident?)
It was the old HSE that caused all the trouble, and aren't they out of the frame now?
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Post by Tomcakes on Jan 3, 2006 18:24:27 GMT
But the HMRI have to approve all new installations, do they not?
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jan 3, 2006 19:09:19 GMT
I thought that aspect had passed to the RSSB....
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Post by Tomcakes on Jan 3, 2006 19:36:56 GMT
Some bunch of beancounters, anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2006 21:31:16 GMT
When stephenk shows up, he will explain how a reversal via a siding is more efficient than reversal via the platform, in terms of potential tph throughput. The DLR uses the exact same setup at Bank and is able to reverse very high numbers of trains. Did someone mention my name? A well designed and operated 2 platform reverse in sidings terminus (a la Moscow) can reverse up to 30% more trains per hour than a well designed and operated 2 platform reverse in platforms terminus (a la Brixton). All heavy metro's that run 34tph + (Moscow, St Petersburg, Sao Paulo, Paris) use either sidings or loops to reverse trains. The present world's busiest 2 platform reverse in platforms terminus is in Tokyo, and reverses 33tph. However, a 2 platform reverse in platforms terminus is usually cheaper and simpler to build and operate than a 2 platform reverse in sidings terminus. LULs present tipping out rule, means that on LUL a reverse in platforms terminus would have it's capacity severly restricted under those operating conditions. I would agree with DWS, that the layout at Heathrow T5 is to seperate arriving and departing passenger flows. This is probably for long standing security reasons. As for Bank on the DLR, the layout was probably due to site constraints (steep gradient and sharp curve on approach to the station). If they were reversed in the platforms a train could arrive in on platform and then depart when the next train arrives in the other platform. This is all well and good, unless the inbound train arrives late (beyond the operating margin). This can then block the path of the outbound train, causing things to go pair shaped for following crossover movements. The higher the tph through crossover, the more likely this will happen. Although sadly the Heathrow T5 design doesn't incorporate this feature, many reverse in siding termini also allow trains to reverse in the departure platform (or sometimes either platform). This potentially allows a late running train to catch up a considerable amount of time. Munich, Vienna, Paris, Lisbon, and Berlin have termini of this design.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2006 16:08:05 GMT
Sounds like a flying terminus with overrun tunnels would be the most effective approach.
Prevents v low approach control speeds...
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Post by stanmorek on Jan 4, 2006 18:12:42 GMT
I thought that aspect had passed to the RSSB.... Hope this is useful. www.hse.gov.uk/railways/railreview.htmIt seems to read that ORR will be combining H&S and economic regulating functions. I wonder if the trade unions have had anything to say about this.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2006 18:58:28 GMT
a siding is more efficient than reversal via the platform most definetly not. from a picc drivers point of view it is far easier to shut down and walk along the platform , then walk through the train opening and closing the communicating doors , the only advantage being is one can have a quick smoke whilst walking through the train i'd much rather be changing ends via the platform though , cant chat up the crumpet in the sidings can we now ;D ;D unless they put a tea and pnr point in at T5. there will be mega delays to the service as all the trains will be queueing at 123 whilst drivers get off and make a drink and have a pnr
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2006 19:16:59 GMT
a siding is more efficient than reversal via the platform most definetly not. from a picc drivers point of view it is far easier to shut down and walk along the platform , then walk through the train opening and closing the communicating doors , the only advantage being is one can have a quick smoke whilst walking through the train i'd much rather be changing ends via the platform though , cant chat up the crumpet in the sidings can we now ;D ;D unless they put a tea and pnr point in at T5. there will be mega delays to the service as all the trains will be queueing at 123 whilst drivers get off and make a drink and have a pnr On most metro's where 30-40tph are reversed in sidings (usually just utilising one siding), the trains are reversed either automatically, with a driver operating from the rear cab, or most commonly with a driver at both ends (double ending). All of these can allow for the driver to step back on the platform rather than in the siding, and allow immediate reversing in the siding. I'm not sure how the staffing will work at T5, but if there are two reversing sidings, then I would guess that drivers will change ends in the sidings. If trains can only reverse in one siding, then either stepping back would take place in the sidings, or the trains will be double ended from the platforms.
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Post by setttt on Jan 4, 2006 19:18:23 GMT
What if they put in a platform/walkway in the turnback sidings, and moved the mess room there as well....would that be a good enough compromise? ;D (At least that way you wouldn't have to trouble yourself with shutting all those car end doors ).
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Post by dunois on Jan 4, 2006 19:56:17 GMT
a siding is more efficient than reversal via the platform most definetly not. from a picc drivers point of view it is far easier to shut down and walk along the platform , then walk through the train opening and closing the communicating doors , the only advantage being is one can have a quick smoke whilst walking through the train i'd much rather be changing ends via the platform though , cant chat up the crumpet in the sidings can we now ;D ;D unless they put a tea and pnr point in at T5. there will be mega delays to the service as all the trains will be queueing at 123 whilst drivers get off and make a drink and have a pnr Correct me if I am wrong but don't you have reversing platforms in the sidings which are used by the driver to go to the other end of the train trough this platform. In paris almost every terminus have one platerform like this on each side with during peak hours a driver waiting at the other end.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2006 20:13:40 GMT
Correct me if I am wrong but don't you have reversing platforms in the sidings which are used by the driver to go to the other end of the train trough this platform. In paris almost every terminus have one platerform like this on each side with during peak hours a driver waiting at the other end. Unlike the Paris metro, LUL has never quite mastered the art of high capacity reversing. At most LUL termini, trains reverse in either 2 or 3 platforms. Many of these termini have dead end tracks, which restricts the inbound speed. For intermediate reversing points (LUL turns many trains short of the terminus), either a 3rd platform or sidings are used to reverse trains. LULs tipping out rule for reversing in sidings results in trains prior to being reversed dwelling for 1-2 minutes at these stations, potentially delaying trains behind. In the sidings drivers change ends in the trains, rather than on "trottoirs" as in Paris and most other European metros.
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Post by dunois on Jan 4, 2006 20:25:21 GMT
Correct me if I am wrong but don't you have reversing platforms in the sidings which are used by the driver to go to the other end of the train trough this platform. In paris almost every terminus have one platerform like this on each side with during peak hours a driver waiting at the other end. Unlike the Paris metro, LUL has never quite mastered the art of high capacity reversing. At most LUL termini, trains reverse in either 2 or 3 platforms. Many of these termini have dead end tracks, which restricts the inbound speed. For intermediate reversing points (LUL turns many trains short of the terminus), either a 3rd platform or sidings are used to reverse trains. LULs tipping out rule for reversing in sidings results in trains prior to being reversed dwelling for 1-2 minutes at these stations, potentially delaying trains behind. In the sidings drivers change ends in the trains, rather than on "trottoirs" as in Paris and most other European metros. I remember related to this that when I went to London the 19th December I got off a Bakerloo Line train at Elephant and Caste, as I wanted to go back north; I went on the other platform to take back the train where I was before as I was sure that it would reverse on the sidings as normal. But the train went back north on the platform he arrived, so I had to wait another train but well that was not a problem as I spent a few time looking at everything which could took my attention in the station. I don't know if reversing at platform is always used at Elephant and Caste as there are sidings in that station.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2006 20:38:22 GMT
I don't know if reversing at platform is always used at Elephant and Caste as there are sidings in that station. Reversing has always routinely been done in platforms at Elephant&Castle. The sidings are just used for stabling trains. However, Elephant&Castle was until the 1970s, the busiest terminus on LUL, reversing approx 34tph.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2006 13:19:15 GMT
Picc trains will pull into the arrivals platform. LUL licenced BAA staff will tip out and give the driver the "Right". Op will pull into one of the two sidings and change ends, plunge, then if the eastbound platform is clear the signalman will clear the train to proceed into T5. Train Op will have PNR, brew tea etc here. Once he is signalled into service he will treat T123 as only for stopping to pick up and set down. So it's now T5 where you get your tea and pea, can't chat up the dollies and a quick fag in the sidings. Two out of three can't be bad.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2006 18:06:10 GMT
Picc trains will pull into the arrivals platform. LUL licenced BAA staff will tip out and give the driver the "Right". Op will pull into one of the two sidings and change ends, plunge, then if the eastbound platform is clear the signalman will clear the train to proceed into T5. Train Op will have PNR, brew tea etc here. Once he is signalled into service he will treat T123 as only for stopping to pick up and set down. So it's now T5 where you get your tea and pea, can't chat up the dollies and a quick fag in the sidings. Two out of three can't be bad. Thanks for that info. So I assume that drivers would be stepping back a train (or two?) at T5s departure platform so that they can have a cup of tea and PNR?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2006 18:44:39 GMT
Picc trains will pull into the arrivals platform. LUL licenced BAA staff will tip out and give the driver the "Right". Op will pull into one of the two sidings and change ends, plunge, then if the eastbound platform is clear the signalman will clear the train to proceed into T5. Train Op will have PNR, brew tea etc here. Once he is signalled into service he will treat T123 as only for stopping to pick up and set down. So it's now T5 where you get your tea and pea, can't chat up the dollies and a quick fag in the sidings. Two out of three can't be bad. This implies that both sidings will be accessible from the arrivals platform (i.e. a scissors crossover), whereas most of the stuff that others (including Met Apprentice) have come across states that only one siding will be used for reversing passenger trains, the other one only being used for storage (i.e. a single crossover from the arrivals platform to the siding).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2006 20:59:43 GMT
Picc trains will pull into the arrivals platform. LUL licenced BAA staff will tip out and give the driver the "Right". Op will pull into one of the two sidings and change ends, plunge, then if the eastbound platform is clear the signalman will clear the train to proceed into T5. Train Op will have PNR, brew tea etc here. Once he is signalled into service he will treat T123 as only for stopping to pick up and set down. So it's now T5 where you get your tea and pea, can't chat up the dollies and a quick fag in the sidings. Two out of three can't be bad. This implies that both sidings will be accessible from the arrivals platform (i.e. a scissors crossover), whereas most of the stuff that others (including Met Apprentice) have come across states that only one siding will be used for reversing passenger trains, the other one only being used for storage (i.e. a single crossover from the arrivals platform to the siding). Actually, plans that I've recently seen (I think they were related to Crossrail) showed (only if zoomed up) a scissors crossover instead of a facing crossover. There appeared to be approx 50m between the arrival platform headwall and the crossover, which should allow for running into the arrival platform as faster speeds than at Queens Park (although not too fast!).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2006 20:38:57 GMT
Both sidings will be used for reversing. No step backs. The left hand platform for arrivals, the right hand platform for departures. There is a crossover that allows trains to go to either siding and the outlet will be to the east bound platform only. I have the latest diagram but this is subject to change as T5 will not become operational until April 2008 which gives plenty of time for HAL and LUL to alter things.
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Post by robots on Feb 28, 2006 15:24:16 GMT
Currently `Stepping Back' at terminus stations takes place at Elephant & Castle , Brixton ,
Aldgate and Morden. There used to be stepping back at Heathrow I don t think there
are any plans to reintroduce it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2006 18:08:24 GMT
Currently `Stepping Back' at terminus stations takes place at Elephant & Castle , Brixton , Aldgate and Morden. There used to be stepping back at Heathrow I don t think there are any plans to reintroduce it. ....and Shoreditch AFAIK. I don't think this will be going on for much longer though........
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Post by lindsay on Mar 9, 2006 23:52:15 GMT
Will trains running via the loop lay over at T4?
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Mar 9, 2006 23:55:30 GMT
Will trains running via the loop lay over at T4? No.
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Post by lindsay on Mar 9, 2006 23:56:51 GMT
Will trains running via the loop lay over at T4? No. So where will they be held to time?
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Mar 9, 2006 23:57:41 GMT
At Terminal 5
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