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Post by lindsay on Mar 9, 2006 23:59:04 GMT
If they are running via the loop they will not be going to T5.
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Mar 10, 2006 0:05:22 GMT
If they are running via the loop they will not be going to T5. Just testing to see if you knew the layout ;D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2006 0:12:49 GMT
Actually I think that was really stupid - unless T4 is meant to have a rubbish service, T5 will be permanently starved of trains, as some of the trains will turn left at Hatton Cross and serve T4, never reacheding T5.
The least they could have done would be to build the junction facing the other way!
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Post by lindsay on Mar 10, 2006 0:14:42 GMT
So a train running then will not lay over at T4 but will be held to time in the tunnel before the junction outside T123?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2006 6:46:16 GMT
Actually I think that was really stupid - unless T4 is meant to have a rubbish service, T5 will be permanently starved of trains, as some of the trains will turn left at Hatton Cross and serve T4, never reacheding T5. The least they could have done would be to build the junction facing the other way! Remember TOK, London Underground doesn't do common sense very often!
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Post by swt458 on Mar 15, 2006 19:37:56 GMT
i see, i think that a loop even at the end would be good although personally i dont see why they didnt extend the Heathrow loop
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2006 20:37:24 GMT
Actually I think that was really stupid - unless T4 is meant to have a rubbish service, As far as I know T4 will have a severely reduced service. Something like 6tph.
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Post by swt458 on Mar 15, 2006 20:47:49 GMT
WHAT? ?? 6 trains per hour?? Thats like 10mins between trains, how does that work then? Swt458
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2006 20:51:23 GMT
WHAT? ?? 6 trains per hour?? Thats like 10mins between trains, how does that work then? Swt458 Actually, according to www.alwaystouchout.com (which is usually correct) 10tph will run to T5, and just 5tph will run via T4.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2006 20:56:46 GMT
A train every six minutes to T5 and a train every twelve minutes to T4. That adds up to 20tph between Acton Town and Hatton Cross.
One can clearly see why the 4tph Ealing-Cockfosters service has been proposed for the Piccadilly Line.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2006 22:52:49 GMT
Last time I checked, 10tph+5tph=15tph. This would leave 9tph to terminate elsewhere at the Piccadilly Line's current 24tph service level.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2006 0:56:35 GMT
I just wanted to add my piece to this very long thread! Trains that go via the T4 loop, I reckon will layover at T4 station as I’ve heard talk of changing the signal at T4 to a controlled signal. But all of this maybe irrelevant due to the following. I went to a London Underground Railway Society lecture last night (cue loads of jokes!) – the lecture was being given by Tim O Toole himself. He invited questions at the end, and there was range of issues raised. One person asked about this very topic; how will the Piccadilly Line serve Heathrow Airport when T5 is opened? Toole said that he was not keen on the idea of dividing trains that run from Central London to Heathrow into two patterns serving T123 & T5, or T4, as either one of those branches will get a slightly poorer service at the expense of the other. He said he was thinking (in consultation with BAA), about running all Central London trains to T5 (obviously all calling at T123), and then running a shuttle service between either Hatton Cross and T4 (or between T4 and T123). Which sounds very bizarre! He said something about the train being able to find a gap in the service to reverse this train on a regular basis. Effectively if you’re running a train every 5 minutes from Central London, through Hatton Cross and T123 WB platforms, this shuttle would have only 1 minute to reverse in that platform, before the next through train comes along. And that’s not even thinking about signalling overlaps and bi directional signalling! As well as the time to board people onto that shuttle with all that luggage. And the shuttle will have to be double manned. He did say also that the shuttle train need not be 6 cars. So we could see a return of a 3 car train like the Aldwych shuttle. The only real benefit from this I see, is a clear customer message. If you want to go T4, change at Hatton Cross, or T123, depending on where the shuttle runs between. Which is better than a person waiting in Central London for 12 minutes for a train that goes to T4, when several have passed by that go to T123 and T5. That’s the only advantage I can see out of this, but it seems he knows something that we don’t about how this will work. And also this was a proposal that he muted, please don’t take this as a firm policy. With regards to the above about just running more trains down the Heathrow branch to serve both T4 and T123/5, apparently the signalling capacity south of Northfields would struggle to cope with so many tph (Toole never said this, this is what I have learnt from other members of staff) – and as the signal upgrade of the Piccadilly Line is not due for several years, that’s one of the determining factor about the options available.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2006 8:58:23 GMT
Last time I checked, 10tph+5tph=15tph. This would leave 9tph to terminate elsewhere at the Piccadilly Line's current 24tph service level. I can't add.
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 16, 2006 18:34:53 GMT
6tph of that is currently Uxbridge - presumably a similar figure would be used for Ealing should the routes swop at some point (either way 6tph goes right at Acton ). Would the other 3tph be the Northfields reversers, or would the latter be discontinued?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2006 21:38:39 GMT
I just wanted to add my piece to this very long thread! Trains that go via the T4 loop, I reckon will layover at T4 station as I’ve heard talk of changing the signal at T4 to a controlled signal. But all of this maybe irrelevant due to the following. I went to a London Underground Railway Society lecture last night (cue loads of jokes!) – the lecture was being given by Tim O Toole himself. He invited questions at the end, and there was range of issues raised. One person asked about this very topic; how will the Piccadilly Line serve Heathrow Airport when T5 is opened? Toole said that he was not keen on the idea of dividing trains that run from Central London to Heathrow into two patterns serving T123 & T5, or T4, as either one of those branches will get a slightly poorer service at the expense of the other. He said he was thinking (in consultation with BAA), about running all Central London trains to T5 (obviously all calling at T123), and then running a shuttle service between either Hatton Cross and T4 (or between T4 and T123). Which sounds very bizarre! He said something about the train being able to find a gap in the service to reverse this train on a regular basis. Effectively if you’re running a train every 5 minutes from Central London, through Hatton Cross and T123 WB platforms, this shuttle would have only 1 minute to reverse in that platform, before the next through train comes along. And that’s not even thinking about signalling overlaps and bi directional signalling! As well as the time to board people onto that shuttle with all that luggage. And the shuttle will have to be double manned. He did say also that the shuttle train need not be 6 cars. So we could see a return of a 3 car train like the Aldwych shuttle. The only real benefit from this I see, is a clear customer message. If you want to go T4, change at Hatton Cross, or T123, depending on where the shuttle runs between. Which is better than a person waiting in Central London for 12 minutes for a train that goes to T4, when several have passed by that go to T123 and T5. That’s the only advantage I can see out of this, but it seems he knows something that we don’t about how this will work. And also this was a proposal that he muted, please don’t take this as a firm policy. With regards to the above about just running more trains down the Heathrow branch to serve both T4 and T123/5, apparently the signalling capacity south of Northfields would struggle to cope with so many tph (Toole never said this, this is what I have learnt from other members of staff) – and as the signal upgrade of the Piccadilly Line is not due for several years, that’s one of the determining factor about the options available. Very interesting. I'm trying to see how this could realistically work... Concerning a T4 to Hatton Cross shuttle. If you allowed 60secs for a T5 bound train to clear the junction (is this realistic?), another 75secs for the shuttle to arrive at Hatton Cross in the WB platform, that would be 135secs. If you allowed a 60sec dwell time, and 75sec run out run in time (for the next T5 bound train to arrive), this would be 270secs. This would just leave a 30sec operating margin per 5 minutes, if the T4 shuttle were to be fitted in between two T5 trains running at regular 5min headways (12tph). The timings would probably be roughly similar for a T4 to T123 shuttle, with the shuttle train reversing in the EB platform at T123 (or WB if the new layout allows it). If the shuttle, actually ran all the way around the loop, reversing to the E of Hatton Cross, then the times in a 5 minute cycle would be 45sec dwell for ex-T5 train, 75sec run out run in time, 75sec dwell/tip out for T4 train, 75sec run out run in time, and back to the ex-T5 train again. During the ex-T5 trains run in, and dwell time, the T4 train could reverse in the EB track across the double crossover which would take approx 120secs if double ending was taking place. This again would leave just 30secs operating margin per 5 minute cycle. So running a shuttle, or loop service would be possible, but it would mean that timing would be critical. Plus when a shuttle train is being fitted in, then the minimum headway between T5 trains would be 5minutes. This could be a problem when the line is not quite ruinning to time. But then again if things have gone pear shaped, then splitting a limited service between T5 and T4 (as well as Rayners et al) may not be ideal anyway!
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Post by amershamsi on Mar 16, 2006 22:54:51 GMT
how much would a link tunnel, from the loop, to a third platform at Hatton X or T123 cost?, thus making the proposed T4 shuttle completely segregated (or even just provide a 3rd platform and stop the shuttle blocking the mainline when in the station)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2006 23:48:59 GMT
how much would a link tunnel, from the loop, to a third platform at Hatton X or T123 cost?, thus making the proposed T4 shuttle completely segregated (or even just provide a 3rd platform and stop the shuttle blocking the mainline when in the station) It would be the sensible thing to do, particularly from T123 to T4 as it would make transferring terminals easier. It would also allow for a future shuttle extension to T6 (if it gets built). But who would pay for it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2006 19:40:19 GMT
BAA (HAL) have paid for all works at T5. Something like £4Billion with only £200Million for Rail Ops. There won't be a shuttle, they couldn't extend the loop in case Jumbos started to fall through. I'll post some facts next week. However, who said T4 may become a layover point is very correct.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2006 20:12:29 GMT
What if they put in a platform/walkway in the turnback sidings, and moved the mess room there as well....would that be a good enough compromise? ;D (At least that way you wouldn't have to trouble yourself with shutting all those car end doors ). That seemed the best (and perhaps quickest) way to me as well.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2006 22:39:59 GMT
Just a quickie. Detrain (by BAA Staff). Into the sidings, out onto a boarding platform. Walkway along the train and a footbridge if it's necessary to send someone to and from the platform. Tea point and bogs still at the eastbound platform where layover/pnr will take place. T4 will also be a layover point for trains round the loop, though this won't be used until T5 opens about April 2008. Hence H123 will be for setdown and pickup only. Staffed by BAA staff and negotiations going on to have a LUL supervisor in situ to comply with procedures in the Ref Manual. Signals towards T5 have been regraded to four X-Signals, that last three in auto mode. Draw up about halfway down the platform to get speed down. The signalling could still change though (Obviously!):-)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2006 9:48:43 GMT
has everyone heard the latest news terminal 5 underground station will be staffed by baa staff not lul staff the only lul staff will be signal and drivers what next. Was speaking to a mate who works at hatton cross as he says they will be called upon for any major incidents like one unders etc as baa staff will just f*** up as baa run airports not railway stations .
the one and only robster
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2006 10:33:43 GMT
no lul supervisor is going to be their
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2006 16:13:59 GMT
I believe that has been mentioned somewhere else or in this thread... AFAIK it is going to be BAA employed staff but trained by LUL
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Apr 8, 2006 22:31:45 GMT
I believe that has been mentioned somewhere else or in this thread... AFAIK it is going to be BAA employed staff but trained by LUL robster - have a look at post#49 - 4th one above this post and right above yours - it says exactly what you raised!! Only time will tell regarding the practicalities of using non LUL staff, but it does work well [in my experience] where LUL share stations with TOC's. BAA runs the Heathrow Express - so they are not only already a TOC, but quite able when it comes to running trains and stations. Welcome BTW!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2006 10:00:27 GMT
BAA runs the Heathrow Express - so they are not only already a TOC, but quite able when it comes to running trains and stations. Quite able!!! it's almost insulting! BAA Drivers break into a sweat and need physciatric help if they see a double yellow signal! And as for the platform staff, the number of times i've seen them call TRTS (Train Ready to Start) for the signal at the WRONG end of the platform is unbelievable!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2006 18:06:25 GMT
Signals towards T5 have been regraded to four X-Signals, that last three in auto mode. Draw up about halfway down the platform to get speed down. The signalling could still change though (Obviously!):-) Huh? Why would there be three X signals in a row?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Apr 11, 2006 0:57:20 GMT
Quite able!!! it's almost insulting! BAA Drivers break into a sweat and need physciatric help if they see a double yellow signal! And as for the platform staff, the number of times i've seen them call TRTS (Train Ready to Start) for the signal at the WRONG end of the platform is unbelievable! My comments were a direct reply to robster's mate at Hatton Cross: Was speaking to a mate who works at hatton cross as he says they will be called upon for any major incidents like one unders etc as baa staff will just f*** up as baa run airports not railway stations. His mate seems to think they only run Airports - so my correction: BAA runs the Heathrow Express - so they are not only already a TOC, but quite able when it comes to running trains and stations. Stands as far as i'm concerned - so you'd best consider yourself insulted!! ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2006 10:55:48 GMT
Signals towards T5 have been regraded to four X-Signals, that last three in auto mode. Draw up about halfway down the platform to get speed down. The signalling could still change though (Obviously!):-) Huh? Why would there be three X signals in a row? Multihome signalling entering a terminus. Auto if nowt ahead, semi ('A' extinguished) if track ahead occupied ensures drivers will seek authority to pass signal at danger. But as I said previously this may alter. Originally it was a semi-auto setup with additional drawups. I have the latest diagram but who really knows how it will all end up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2006 11:51:22 GMT
Huh? Why would there be three X signals in a row? Multihome signalling entering a terminus. Auto if nowt ahead, semi ('A' extinguished) if track ahead occupied ensures drivers will seek authority to pass signal at danger. But as I said previously this may alter. Originally it was a semi-auto setup with additional drawups. I have the latest diagram but who really knows how it will all end up. Bwaaaaaa? That sounds like a major violation of modern LU signalling principles, not to mention confusing as $%@&~! I could understand a quadruple home signal with calculated overlaps for a graduated linespeed approach, but this setup sounds totally oddball!
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Post by Colin on Apr 12, 2006 23:48:32 GMT
I can understand having an X signal to force drivers into seeking authority under failure condtions - but 3 in a row? That means the driver will have to seek authority 3 times. then there's the draw up, which if I have read post#49 correctly, implies this will be an X signal too - a draw is a semi, so it can't be an X signal as well I'm glad I don't drive on the Picc - but if I did, i'd be a little concerned at these strange plans.
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