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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2007 10:15:47 GMT
I saw on BBC London News yesterday a report about escalating complaints about the public transport system struggling to cope with dispersing crowds after Arsenal stadium events, now that the capacity is around 60,000. Leading to several spectators leaving early (to Thierry Henry's annoyance!), and crowds taking upto an hour to leave the general area. Actually I have seen worse than one hour for massive crowds to be able to leave big events - but to expect this to continue for every single match is a bit of a disgrace.
The usual scapegoating/bashing of TFL and LU took place from some upset football fans, and the Islington Council spokesman. But I can't help but think though that LU or TFL have not taken the issue seriously enough and now we have ended up in an far from ideal position. It was unclear how upgrades to the transport network serving Arsenal was linked to the planning permission for the new stadium, but it seems as if very little realised from it.
Yes there is a refurbishment going on of Arsenal station - but thats hardly going to achieve anything practical. It annoys me when I constantly see press releases and bulletins saying that this will assist in serving the increasing traffic for Arsenal stadium, when it will barely do anything IMO. It will just be a greater pinchpoint.
And the plans for opening a second stairwell at Holloway Road station (which fell through anyway) - was just an easy option out as they were just going to open up a redundant area of the station. Did LU really believe that this plan would seriously help disperse the increased traffic?
We all know that to actually produce solve the issue practically will require alot of cash. Its just frustrating that LU appears to have let this issue just roll on and on. And rather than planning for opening of the new stadium, LU are now instead having to react to the new stadium - 3 spare trains on the Picc Line, running various trains empty to mass pick up crowds from Arsenal, crowd control measures at local stations - all of these measures can only achieve so much.
And also, does anyone know why WAGN will never run any of their services to/from Moorgate during match events?
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Post by compsci on Feb 2, 2007 10:39:45 GMT
FCC stop all services at Finsbury Park on match days. This includes the Cambridge Express, which nobody gets on as the number of Arsenal fans in Cambridge can't be especially high.
Drayton park station on the Moorgate branch supposedly has a rather narrow island platform (I haven't actually seen it) which would become hazardous if overcrowded.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2007 12:00:29 GMT
The continuing intransigence of transport providers with regards to Drayton Park station (which is literally right next to the ground and has a huge parcel of railway-related land next door that could be used to upgrade the station) boggles my mind. In its current state it would indeed be very dangerous to make use of it, but given its proximity I'm amazed that not a single provider has come up with a plan to make the station suitable for the crowds.
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Post by abe on Feb 2, 2007 12:31:52 GMT
I understood the problem to be that having promised a stack of money to the transport providers to improve all of the stations in the area (including major works at Holloway Road) some kind of planning delay has arisen. Islington Council were starting a study last September (!) and presumably this needs to report before work can be done. The transport providers are not the main problem here.
In short, the money has been offered but anything useful is being delayed by bureaucracy...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2007 13:26:05 GMT
To illustrate the points made by Compsci and TOK, here is a picture of a FCC class 313 departing from Drayton Park in the shadow of the [then] incomplete Emirates Stadium. As can also be seen, the island platform is rather narrow. The former site of Drayton Park depot can also be seen to the left of the train.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2007 22:10:48 GMT
It seems that in many foreign countries, if a new stadium is built, then the nearest stations are also rebuilt too to handle the crowds. Of course in the UK no one wants to come up with the money to pay for it do they!
Also, I know of many other metro systems where more than 3 trains are added to the system after a major event. Although sadly Paris is not one of them (10min frequency on Line 13 after a major event is pathetic!)
The most cost effective station upgraded near to the Emirates Stadium would probably be to add a widened platform at Drayton Park, and run a Finsbury Park-Moorgate shuttle on match days.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2007 22:22:49 GMT
well, no.
it's just lazy football fans really. The walk from Finsbury Park isn't that long and it helps to stagger things when the match finishes. All trains that go to Drayton Park have to go Through Finsbury Park, so why not save some money and just send them to Finsbury Park!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2007 23:24:43 GMT
Because if you runs trains from Moorgate you can get fans from Liverpool Street and London Bridge and St. Pancras and....
I highly doubt that Arsenal supporters all live on the ECML, and running GN&CR services on match days through Drayton Park opens up a much larger area of connectivity that takes significant pressure off of the Piccadilly and Victoria Lines.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2007 2:02:15 GMT
Unless there's some obstacle that can't be seen in DavidH's photo, widening the Drayton Park platform would seem ridiculously easy to achieve.
Why on earth was this not sorted BEFORE planning permission for the new stadium?
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Post by Tomcakes on Feb 3, 2007 11:22:49 GMT
Shouldn't it have been a condition on planning permission, that any development would come with extra money being paid to LU for an upgraded station?
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Post by davebleicher on Feb 3, 2007 11:30:56 GMT
Unfortunately there is an obstacle that can't be seen in DavidH's photo. Directly behind (south of) the photographer the tracks go into tube tunnels. Also, on the right hand (east) side of the picture you can see a retaining wall, this carries a 25kV electrified freight-only branch linking the East Coast Main Line with the North London Line. One of the overhead power line gantries can just about be seen.
The simple solution would be to leave the tracks where they are and build a second platform on the site of the old depot, for northbound trains. The island platform would be retained for southbound trains, with a solid barrier to prevent people from falling on the northbound track.
Then FCC would have to start running trains on the Moorgate branch on Saturdays, a long overdue move in my mind.
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Post by mrjrt on Feb 3, 2007 12:49:51 GMT
Unless there's some obstacle that can't be seen in DavidH's photo, widening the Drayton Park platform would seem ridiculously easy to achieve. Why on earth was this not sorted BEFORE planning permission for the new stadium? I'd imagine it's because if you look in the exact opposite direction from that photo you'd see the platform end a meter or two from the tunnel mouths, a new one of which would be required if the platforms we widened as there's not enough clearance for a curve into the present alignment. My guess.
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Post by Ben on Feb 3, 2007 14:05:24 GMT
I agree with davebleicher; build a second platform on the site of the depot. The original island could have PED's installed either side, so that only the island could be used during quiet times, but at busy times the northbound side remains locked and the new platform is used.
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Post by Tomcakes on Feb 3, 2007 17:13:23 GMT
However, unlike with LU, on the Mainline it is common for different types of train to be using the same track - whether this is in the timetable and planned, or an unplanned substitution or diversion. Thus PEDs are unwise.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2007 17:41:34 GMT
I think that only 313's are passed for the Drayton Park line now anyway, bar engineers trains.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2007 18:20:21 GMT
the 313s are lower than normal stock as they have to fit in the Great Northern tunnels.
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Post by sm on Feb 3, 2007 19:05:44 GMT
who cares? it's Arsenal!
All that needs to be done is Arsnal station renamed Gillespie Road again, and some improved service to WHL...
WHL copes with (admittedly half) their crowds with only a 4tph at best service running from WHL station or a long walk to Seven Sisters tube, so Arsenal can stop whinging!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2007 19:40:54 GMT
Drayton Park to Holloway Road is about a twelve minute walk.
White Hart Lane is indeed a short walk from Spurs ground, but it's narrow stairways must cause problems [unless these have been replaced lately]
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2007 17:21:32 GMT
Next to Drayton Park is the freight only line from Finsbury Park to Highbury and Islington. Why not build a platform there and extend the new ELR from Dalston when it is built through to Finsbury Park? There is plenty of room at Finsbury Park. Then they could extend it to Alexandra Palace via Highgate.
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Post by cetacean on Feb 6, 2007 5:32:55 GMT
That was in the original plan (to Finsbury Park) but dropped ages ago for "operational reasons". Anyone know what they are exactly?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 9:15:45 GMT
There are probably too many flat junctions in the way - keep in mind that the ELLX will have its own tracks west of Dalston Junction, with the NLL on the existing lines and chock full of the existing service, as well as freight.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 10:07:13 GMT
The ELR will be using the current NLL tracks from Dalston to Highbury. There are the freight (Number1) line(s) as well through Highbury. All that would be needed is another set of points being put in on the current NLL tracks at Canonbury West Junction. I have heard that the ELR will have to go onto the number 2 lines at Dalston. If they do not want to invest in some more points from the number 2s at Canonbury West Junction. Why not run a Stratford to Finsbury Park (and Alexandra Palace) service using the number 1 line. Then have a ELR to Richmond/Clapham service using the number 2s?
Out of interest, I can see no problems at Finsbury Park. The platform is there on what is the Down Slow 2. You are even able to reverse in that platform and go towards Canonbury West. I know that as I did it the other week.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 22:41:52 GMT
Just read on Ceefax, Minor delays on the Picc due to overcrowding at Arsenal! And it was just a friendly match as well: Brazil vs Portugal. I wonder why that was, when no delays are usually announced for normal Arsenal matches.
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Post by Chris M on Feb 6, 2007 23:42:27 GMT
Perhaps someone at 55 Broadway has thought that there will be absolutely no chance of getting any funding from anyone to improve things if the status quo appears to be working. If they publicise delays due to Arsenal matches then they will have something to point to show whoever controls the purse strings to prove that the money that was promised is needed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 0:15:36 GMT
The ELR will be using the current NLL tracks from Dalston to Highbury. Really? I ought the four-tracking was to be restored between Caledonian Road and Dalston Junction, with the western end terminating in a pair of reversing sidings. The original plan was designed to make the best use of the alignment by segregating ELLX and NLL services - has this changed?
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Post by cetacean on Feb 7, 2007 1:42:27 GMT
Really? I ought the four-tracking was to be restored between Caledonian Road and Dalston Junction, with the western end terminating in a pair of reversing sidings. The original plan was designed to make the best use of the alignment by segregating ELLX and NLL services - has this changed? My understanding is the segregation will be between passenger services and freight. Half of the ELL trains will reverse at Dalston Junction, so having dedicated track for them beyond there is unnecessary.
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Post by davebleicher on Feb 7, 2007 7:26:11 GMT
For the benefit of "outsiders", what's a PED?
I don't know when the last time an engineers train went down the Great Northern & City was. Probably before '76. The track in the tunnels is obviously pre-'76. Even the fourth rail is still there even though 313s don't have a centre pick-up.
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Post by Dmitri on Feb 7, 2007 9:36:25 GMT
For the benefit of "outsiders", what's a PED? Platform Edge Doors. Some information on them (with photo) is here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 9:49:49 GMT
The ELR will be using the current NLL tracks from Dalston to Highbury. Really? I ought the four-tracking was to be restored between Caledonian Road and Dalston Junction, with the western end terminating in a pair of reversing sidings. The original plan was designed to make the best use of the alignment by segregating ELLX and NLL services - has this changed? I can only go by what I have been told.I have not seen any plans. You could be right. I have got this map from here. It only shows to Highbury
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2007 23:16:22 GMT
Perhaps someone at 55 Broadway has thought that there will be absolutely no chance of getting any funding from anyone to improve things if the status quo appears to be working. If they publicise delays due to Arsenal matches then they will have something to point to show whoever controls the purse strings to prove that the money that was promised is needed. It turns out that there was higher traffic using the Picc line for this one-off friendly than for normal Arsenal matches - which caused delays due to congestion. It was thought that whereas with normal Arsenal matches the home fans know of the range of local stations/routes to choose from, but with the Brazil vs Portugal friendly which may have attracted lots of fans who don't know the local area - all assumed Arsenal was the only station to serve the stadium and all duely used the Picc Line to get there!
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