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95TS
Jan 11, 2006 19:34:50 GMT
Post by cdr113 on Jan 11, 2006 19:34:50 GMT
Are northern line trains operated manually, as opposed to the ATO on the central and if so, are they suitably equipped for ATO and will this ever appear on the black line? I've noticed the trains seem very much slower than their central line counterparts...
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,309
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95TS
Jan 11, 2006 19:49:26 GMT
Post by Colin on Jan 11, 2006 19:49:26 GMT
Perhaps this may be of some use?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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95TS
Jan 11, 2006 19:49:33 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2006 19:49:33 GMT
According to Tim O'Toole, at a recent staff propaganda seminar I attended the Northern will go ATO after the Jubilee in 2009.
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95TS
Jan 11, 2006 19:51:08 GMT
Post by cdr113 on Jan 11, 2006 19:51:08 GMT
Perhaps this may be of some use? ummm, am i missing something???
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Deleted
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95TS
Jan 11, 2006 20:26:38 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2006 20:26:38 GMT
indeed the Northern Line trains are slower, but i wouldn't trust myself on an ATO train one bit, when ATO messes up it does it in a big fashion... Leaves on the line anyone? lol.
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95TS
Jan 11, 2006 20:35:39 GMT
Post by q8 on Jan 11, 2006 20:35:39 GMT
indeed the Northern Line trains are slower, but i wouldn't trust myself on an ATO train one bit, when ATO messes up it does it in a big fashion... Leaves on the line anyone? lol. Neither would I trust an ATO train. In the open at least. There have been cases of manually driven trains even at very low speeds 'picking up' at termini on greasy or wet rails and going through the buffers or the wall. In some cases the driver being injured. Imagine the consequences with an ato train at somewhere like Stanmore if that happened? By the time the poor driver reacted the damn thing could have crushed his legs if not worse.
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95TS
Jan 11, 2006 20:41:41 GMT
Post by tom2506 on Jan 11, 2006 20:41:41 GMT
even though I would describe the ride quality that ATO gives as 'fun' I really wouldnt want the 95/96s to be ATO. The 96's acceleration is good enough already!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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95TS
Jan 11, 2006 20:43:25 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2006 20:43:25 GMT
indeed the Northern Line trains are slower, but i wouldn't trust myself on an ATO train one bit, when ATO messes up it does it in a big fashion... Leaves on the line anyone? lol. Neither would I trust an ATO train. In the open at least. There have been cases of manually driven trains even at very low speeds 'picking up' at termini on greasy or wet rails and going through the buffers or the wall. In some cases the driver being injured. Imagine the consequences with an ato train at somewhere like Stanmore if that happened? By the time the poor driver reacted the damn thing could have crushed his legs if not worse. I have often seen the Central line trains come into Ealing in ATO and I have often thought that they come into a dead end terminus a bit fast, it seems all it would take is a bit of grease on the rails and the train would end up in the take away.
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Deleted
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95TS
Jan 11, 2006 21:28:43 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2006 21:28:43 GMT
Well, so far ATO has an excellent safety record, so those of you with doubts about it's safety have very little to worry about. I only know of one incident of a train in ATO going beyond the buffers, and that was a test train on BART which ended up in a car park. Nearly all accidents on ATO equipped lines occur when the trains are being driven manually by inexperienced drivers.
Now when was the last time a train running in ATO ran through a station starter at 29mph, 24mph above the speed limit? I rest my case.
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95TS
Jan 11, 2006 22:37:34 GMT
Post by Christopher J on Jan 11, 2006 22:37:34 GMT
I remember hearing of an incident about a year ago where a Central Line 92 stock under the control of ATO came flying out of the eastbound portal at Stratford when it was raining and managed to overshoot by 10 cars, that's a WHOLE train and 2 cars more!!
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Deleted
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95TS
Jan 11, 2006 23:03:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2006 23:03:47 GMT
I decided to do a bit of google research on crashes directly caused by trains in ATO mode, and I only came across 1 fatal accident, compared to a whole string of fatal accidents caused by trains in manual. Considering that a large proportion of metro systems run in ATO this is a very impressive safety record! The accident in question was on Washington's Metrorail, and involved a lot of human error as well. The train was running in ATO mode and overshot two stations in a row in poor weather conditions (snow). Despite this, the train was still run in ATO instead of manual towards the terminus station. At the time the policy was to drive in ATO at all times except emergencies, due to many wheel flats caused by trains run in manual. A lower ATO performance level was supposed to have been transmitted to the train, but due to the overrun this information could not be transmitted to the train, and thus it defaulted to full performance ATO. The train overran the terminus and crashed into a spare train in the tail tracks, which should have been parked on the other track! The emergency stop button had not been manually depressed by the inexperienced driver. The report is here www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1996/RAR9604.pdf
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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95TS
Jan 11, 2006 23:19:16 GMT
Post by Phil on Jan 11, 2006 23:19:16 GMT
For our more recent members ATO and rain were discussed in great detail a couple of months ago. See here
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95TS
Jan 12, 2006 6:51:02 GMT
Post by q8 on Jan 12, 2006 6:51:02 GMT
I suspect there may be more ATO overruns than we are allowed to see or hear about. Case of 'ssshhhh............ and driver keep yer mouth shut or you'll have no job'
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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95TS
Jan 12, 2006 7:39:15 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2006 7:39:15 GMT
I suspect there may be more ATO overruns than we are allowed to see or hear about. Case of 'ssshhhh............ and driver keep yer mouth shut or you'll have no job' I'm sure there are many overruns, but I'm also sure that virtually all of these overruns are within the signal overlaps which are not compromised in a lot less places compared to signalling systems for manual driving where as we know many compromised overlaps still exist. Unlike on conventional signalling systems, an overrun or ATP emergency brake application is usually reported automatically to the control room, although this is dependant on the ATO system used.
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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95TS
Jan 12, 2006 14:10:42 GMT
Post by Tom on Jan 12, 2006 14:10:42 GMT
I suspect there may be more ATO overruns than we are allowed to see or hear about. Case of 'ssshhhh............ and driver keep yer mouth shut or you'll have no job' Or perhaps you're just paranoid. (Or scaremongering, or both.) Having been a member of the Central Line ATO team and after designing, testing and commissioning ATO data, I would tend to disagree. Any sites where modifications have been done are very closely monitored post commissioning, and if a repeated problem is observed by LU and reported consideration is given to changing ATO data to cure it. And as the Principle ATO engineer knows, if I observe something that isn't right I'll be straight on the phone requesting a download of the train, and if it apprears at more than one station I'll generally be riding in the leading cab observing ATO performance.
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95TS
Jan 12, 2006 15:49:56 GMT
Post by graham on Jan 12, 2006 15:49:56 GMT
It's not scientific at all but:
I've been on a Northern Line train that over ran at Euston Bank Branch Southbound - because the rather flustered driver was honest enough to announce on the PA he "came in a bit fast". I've also seen a couple of old slam door trains fly through Purley station when they should have stopped.
On the other hand I travel on the Victoria line every day and the Central line and DLR often and have never overshot. Though sometimes the 67TS do pull up hard.
Not quite a double blind randomised trial but it makes me feel safe.
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95TS
Jan 12, 2006 16:27:56 GMT
Post by q8 on Jan 12, 2006 16:27:56 GMT
I suspect there may be more ATO overruns than we are allowed to see or hear about. Case of 'ssshhhh............ and driver keep yer mouth shut or you'll have no job' Or perhaps you're just paranoid. (Or scaremongering, or both.)quote] There you go again. Just picking holes for the sake of it. Can't I say ANYTHING?
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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95TS
Jan 12, 2006 16:33:22 GMT
Post by Phil on Jan 12, 2006 16:33:22 GMT
I don't want to lock yet ANOTHER thread, but I will if folks keep taking innocent comments personally.
(on BOTH sides in this case)
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95TS
Jan 13, 2006 16:17:00 GMT
Post by mowat on Jan 13, 2006 16:17:00 GMT
I think that only the Victoria Line (becuse its all in a tunnel), and the Central Line from North Acton to Leytonstone (and only this becuse two sevices Ealing Broadway to Hainault & West Ruislip to Epping run over it) sould be ATO.
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DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,415
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95TS
Jan 13, 2006 18:59:30 GMT
Post by DWS on Jan 13, 2006 18:59:30 GMT
Are northern line trains operated manually, as opposed to the ATO on the central and if so, are they suitably equipped for ATO and will this ever appear on the black line? I've noticed the trains seem very much slower than their central line counterparts... 96 TS do not run on the Northern Line
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Deleted
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95TS
Jan 13, 2006 19:31:06 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2006 19:31:06 GMT
Are northern line trains operated manually, as opposed to the ATO on the central and if so, are they suitably equipped for ATO and will this ever appear on the black line? I've noticed the trains seem very much slower than their central line counterparts... 96 TS do not run on the Northern Line This did make me wonder whether something screwy happened to the forum and pulled some element of the same-named Jubilee Line forum thread here!
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
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95TS
Jan 13, 2006 21:01:02 GMT
Post by Colin on Jan 13, 2006 21:01:02 GMT
96 TS do not run on the Northern Line Orignal post now modified, so that the thread shows as 95TS in the main index.
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Deleted
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95TS
Jan 13, 2006 21:05:24 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2006 21:05:24 GMT
I think that only the Victoria Line (becuse its all in a tunnel), and the Central Line from North Acton to Leytonstone (and only this becuse two sevices Ealing Broadway to Hainault & West Ruislip to Epping run over it) sould be ATO. Well in 15 years, nearly the whole of LU will run in ATO, so tough luck!
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95TS
Jan 13, 2006 21:23:44 GMT
Post by cdr113 on Jan 13, 2006 21:23:44 GMT
96 TS do not run on the Northern Line Orignal post now modified, so that the thread shows as 95TS in the main index. cheers, apologies for that, being too clever for my own good it seems...!
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95TS
Jan 14, 2006 0:48:13 GMT
Post by ttran on Jan 14, 2006 0:48:13 GMT
Well in 15 years, nearly the whole of LU will run in ATO, so tough luck! It'll be a sad thing to see the day when computers completely take over a job which humans are perfectly capable of doing. Now I know you'll probably start going on about how ATO can push through more capacity and all that mumbo jumbo, but honestly I know I'd rather have a living, breathing human being doing the driving as opposed to some heap of junk machinery. Humans may still be required to do door duties but it'll just never be the same. Ah well such is life I guess...
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Deleted
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95TS
Jan 14, 2006 7:32:57 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2006 7:32:57 GMT
Well in 15 years, nearly the whole of LU will run in ATO, so tough luck! It'll be a sad thing to see the day when computers completely take over a job which humans are perfectly capable of doing. Now I know you'll probably start going on about how ATO can push through more capacity and all that mumbo jumbo, but honestly I know I'd rather have a living, breathing human being doing the driving as opposed to some heap of junk machinery. Humans may still be required to do door duties but it'll just never be the same. Ah well such is life I guess... I don't think that ATO allowing capacity increases is mumbo jumbo, as you put it. Many of the worlds metro systems including LU are severely overcrowded, and aside from spending huge amounts of money on new lines, ATO is one of the ways forward to increase the capacity on these lines. I'd actually rather use a reliable, safe, high capacity, frequent metro which tends to need modern signalling and ATO. However I would prefer humans in control of the doors, on the microphone, and for technical faults. Whether they be in a driving cab, or mobile as on the DLR, I don't mind.
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95TS
Jan 14, 2006 10:39:46 GMT
Post by ttran on Jan 14, 2006 10:39:46 GMT
Not meaning to pick a bone with you or anything, but would you really feel safe having a computer deal with an emergency situation, such as something similar to the unfortunate events of 7/7, or a fatality for example? I know I wouldn't.
I'd prefer a human to be in TOTAL control, not just confined to merely tending to doors...Anyway, that's just my outside opinion.
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95TS
Jan 14, 2006 12:02:06 GMT
Post by cdr113 on Jan 14, 2006 12:02:06 GMT
Not meaning to pick a bone with you or anything, but would you really feel safe having a computer deal with an emergency situation, such as something similar to the unfortunate events of 7/7, or a fatality for example? I know I wouldn't. I'd prefer a human to be in TOTAL control, not just confined to merely tending to doors...Anyway, that's just my outside opinion. but on current ATO lines in london, a human IS in overall control all the time, unless I'm mistaken?
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95TS
Jan 14, 2006 12:56:41 GMT
Post by Tomcakes on Jan 14, 2006 12:56:41 GMT
They say in 15 years everything will be ATO - they said something similar in the 60's, didn't they?
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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95TS
Jan 14, 2006 12:59:58 GMT
Post by Phil on Jan 14, 2006 12:59:58 GMT
I'd prefer a human to be in TOTAL control, not just confined to merely tending to doors...Anyway, that's just my outside opinion. So you're against ABS on cars are you Andrew? Sometimes computers can do things way outside human capabilities. BUT, if you mean there should always be a human present, who has a (big red) OVERRIDE button so he can take control if he has to, then I agree fully with you. Human presence rather than human control.
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