|
Post by jimini on Mar 26, 2006 13:57:51 GMT
Afternoon all,
I was on my way home last Monday, about 9:30ish. Got to Waterloo and the next three trains were all terminating at Kennington, so I hopped on and off we went. About half way between Waterloo and Kennington, the driver informed us VERY LOUDLY four or five times that the next station was Kennington and we were all to change to Platform 4 for a Morden train. I must emphasize just how loud this chap was bellowing at us all. Once at Kennington I did the usual, pottered over to platform 4 and waited for my train. Then I was a little surprised to turn around and look back at platform 2 to see the doors closing in the usual fashion, ie. beeping warning sounds, all doors closing at once, like a train still in service. I wandered back over to the other platform and, sure enough, he was signalled to and therefore entering the loop.
Now I'm no expert (hence the fact that I'm asking you guys for clarification), but I was under the impression that, if a train's being taken out of service, the driver must walk back through the train, using the buttons on the end of the cars to close the doors once he/she is satisfied that the carriage is empty. Once all are closed, then they can take the train out of service. This driver however seemed to think that shouting several times very loud over the PA would suffice.
So my question is: What are the rules on taking trains out of service, and was this driver being naughty / lazy, or have I got the wrong end of the stick? I remember a previous thread some time ago about passengers not being allowed in sidings etc as they haven't got the right sort of safety features (ATP maybe?).
Many thanks in advance as always for satisfying my curiosity!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2006 14:20:11 GMT
The only reason you can't take passengers into sidings and around loops etc is that they aren't insured in them. The driver should've either gone through the train closing the doors with the porter buttons, as you said, or had an SA do it for him...
Sam
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,083
|
Post by Tom on Mar 26, 2006 14:33:42 GMT
The only reason you can't take passengers into sidings and around loops etc is that they aren't insured in them. No it isn't. The route holding and point locking circuitry in sidings is less complex and to a less rigorous standard for a passenger route and it is for this reason that you can't take passengers over a shunt route. But as Kennington loop is fully signalled to passenger standards you are allowed to take passengers over it and hence the older standard of three PA's and shut the doors is acceptable if there are no detrainment staff provided.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2006 14:34:59 GMT
The only reason you can't take passengers into sidings and around loops etc is that they aren't insured in them. No it isn't. The route holding and point locking circuitry in sidings is less complex and to a less rigourous standard for a passenger route and it is for this reason that you can't take passengers over a shunt route. Hence you cannot insure it for passenger usage.......... Sam
|
|
Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
|
Post by Phil on Mar 26, 2006 14:49:54 GMT
No it isn't. The route holding and point locking circuitry in sidings is less complex and to a less rigourous standard for a passenger route and it is for this reason that you can't take passengers over a shunt route. Hence you cannot insure it for passenger usage.......... Sam Not JUST insurance Sam. It's our old friends HSE who do the prohibiting, the loss of insurance is a by product. Same with a car. If it's unroadworhty the police can prosecute - you're breaking the law. It's as a RESULT of this you're uninsured, not the other way round
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2006 15:52:35 GMT
I believe that the tipping out rules are part of the safety case in LULs operating licence. As mentioned, in the case of the Kennington loop, these rules don't apply as it is signalled as for a main running line. Trains are usually still tipped out at Kennington, either with the platform staff closing the car doors, or with the platform staff walking down the length of train to check that they are empty, and then the driver closing the doors. However, if the platform staff arn't available, then the train can procede around the loop without being tipped out as long as the clear messages have been made on the PA.
As I've mentioned before, just about every other metro in the world (except NYC) is allowed to take passengers into reversing sidings. Unfortunately, in this nanny state country, it doesn't seem to be acceptable to take stupid people into sidings.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2006 16:39:53 GMT
One of these days I'm going to work up the courage to ask the T/Op to let me stay in the train - if the detrainment rules have been relaxed to permit old-style detrainment for Kennington loop, I want to try bashing it...
|
|
Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
|
Post by Phil on Mar 26, 2006 16:44:26 GMT
One of these days I'm going to work up the courage to ask the T/Op to let me stay in the train - if the detrainment rules have been relaxed to permit old-style detrainment for Kennington loop, I want to try bashing it... Why ask - why not just stay on (as in the case of the first post)?
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,083
|
Post by Tom on Mar 26, 2006 17:23:22 GMT
Unfortunately, in this nanny state country, it doesn't seem to be acceptable to take stupid people into sidings. Mainly because one of our more stupid passengers took to trying to run through a train which was going to a siding, falling out and getting killed rather than sitting there and waiting for the train to go back into service a few minutes later.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2006 17:27:57 GMT
One of these days I'm going to work up the courage to ask the T/Op to let me stay in the train - if the detrainment rules have been relaxed to permit old-style detrainment for Kennington loop, I want to try bashing it... Just stay in the train, right at the back.... Mainly because one of our more stupid passengers took to trying to run through a train which was going to a siding, falling out and getting killed rather than sitting there and waiting for the train to go back into service a few minutes later. I wouldnt want to be stuck on a train in a siding with some random person, what would you do if it turned nasty?
|
|
|
Post by Tomcakes on Mar 26, 2006 17:59:59 GMT
Mainly because one of our more stupid passengers took to trying to run through a train which was going to a siding, falling out and getting killed rather than sitting there and waiting for the train to go back into service a few minutes later. I wouldnt want to be stuck on a train in a siding with some random person, what would you do if it turned nasty? What's the difference between that and being stuck on a train on a running line with a random person? Or what about the passenger, being stuck on a train in a siding with a random driver?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2006 18:02:37 GMT
What's the difference between that and being stuck on a train on a running line with a random person? Chances are you are going to be in a siding longer than you would be on the main line..... Or what about the passenger, being stuck on a train in a siding with a random driver? You could say that, but you would hope the driver wasnt going to do anything un toward
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2006 18:03:44 GMT
Mainly because one of our more stupid passengers took to trying to run through a train which was going to a siding, falling out and getting killed rather than sitting there and waiting for the train to go back into service a few minutes later. If the rules are changed everytime there is a fatality on the tube, that maybe all dangerous things such as escalators, doors, and gaps should be taken out of service as well? I wouldnt want to be stuck on a train in a siding with some random person, what would you do if it turned nasty? You're probably more likely to come across a dangerous person on a platform, as in a siding (there are plenty at Brixton!). Although admittedly it's harder to avoid them in a siding. Most foreign metros that reverse in sidings have platforms for the drivers to change ends, rather than having to walk through the train. Or the trains are double ended, with drivers changing ends on the platforms. This means that the drivers don't have to meet any passengers who were stupid enough to end up in the sidings.
|
|
|
Post by Tomcakes on Mar 26, 2006 18:24:04 GMT
What's the difference between that and being stuck on a train on a running line with a random person? Chances are you are going to be in a siding longer than you would be on the main line..... Unless, say, there's a train failure on the mainline, where passengers will likely be more angry towards the driver (it's an LU problem*, and they are an agent of LU) Or what about the passenger, being stuck on a train in a siding with a random driver? You could say that, but you would hope the driver wasnt going to do anything un toward Equally, you would hope that the passenger wasnt going to do anything un toward. * - I know it could be some lot of contractors, but to the passenger they don't care which particular body is at fault - it's London Underground.
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,083
|
Post by Tom on Mar 26, 2006 18:25:12 GMT
Mainly because one of our more stupid passengers took to trying to run through a train which was going to a siding, falling out and getting killed rather than sitting there and waiting for the train to go back into service a few minutes later. I wouldnt want to be stuck on a train in a siding with some random person, what would you do if it turned nasty? Yeah, that is one problem which other systems don't have a problem with as the driver doesn't walk through the train. Thankfully most of the ones who are likely to be overcarried (drunk, asleep etc) only turn nasty if disturbed.
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,083
|
Post by Tom on Mar 26, 2006 18:26:40 GMT
Mainly because one of our more stupid passengers took to trying to run through a train which was going to a siding, falling out and getting killed rather than sitting there and waiting for the train to go back into service a few minutes later. If the rules are changed everytime there is a fatality on the tube, that maybe all dangerous things such as escalators, doors, and gaps should be taken out of service as well? I know. Perhaps we'll have to ban passengers for their own safety one of these days. ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2006 19:14:30 GMT
One of these days I'm going to work up the courage to ask the T/Op to let me stay in the train - if the detrainment rules have been relaxed to permit old-style detrainment for Kennington loop, I want to try bashing it... Just stay in the train, right at the back.... Is it really that easy now? I'd rather not get myself in the %$!@% if I can help it...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2006 20:19:26 GMT
Just stay in the train, right at the back.... Is it really that easy now? I'd rather not get myself in the %$!@% if I can help it... I managed to stay on, and they were tipping out that day too!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2006 20:31:00 GMT
Just stay in the train, right at the back.... Is it really that easy now? I'd rather not get myself in the %$!@% if I can help it... The worst that could happen to you is an invitation for you to leave the train.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2006 22:46:28 GMT
Is it really that easy now? I'd rather not get myself in the %$!@% if I can help it... If you are asked to get off, get off
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2006 0:12:08 GMT
Is it really that easy now? I'd rather not get myself in the %$!@% if I can help it... If you are asked to get off, get off Well, that's rather obvious - but how likely am I to be asked to get off? So far as I can see the driver doesn't actually check the carriages now; he doesn't even stick his head out of the cab to see if anyone is hanging around.
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,309
|
Post by Colin on Mar 27, 2006 0:56:13 GMT
Ok folks, drivers perspective here. It is a sackable offence to carry passengers into sidings. That is a fact. As Tom says, the proving gubbins for point's etc is to a lesser standard - thus if anything went wrong, the driver & LUL would be in very, very, very deep s**t. Now to Kennington loop - personally I have no knowledge of the area, but i'll accept others statements regarding the signalling arrangements. However, just because it is 'safe' to carry passengers, dosen't make it right. My personal opinion is that the driver in question acted in an unproffesional manner - mind you, it dosen't surprise me on the Northern. Look at their history - instructor operator sacked for watching DVD's instead of his trainee, driver sacked for SPADing while asleep, driver non stops station because he was speeding and couldn't stop in time................yep, quality drivers
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2006 9:31:18 GMT
And was ever thus.
Finchley Central, spring 1961. I get on southbound train, noting signal is red. Doors close, guard dings to driver, train moves off. Train goes over trainstop, and STOPS.
This exchange should get some interesting responses if there are any members who drive on the Misery Line.
|
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Mar 27, 2006 14:00:38 GMT
mind you, it dosen't surprise me on the Northern. Look at their history - instructor operator sacked for watching DVD's instead of his trainee, driver sacked for SPADing while asleep, driver non stops station because he was speeding and couldn't stop in time................yep, quality drivers Blimey! Come on Colin, every line has it's fair share of Operator errors. In this day and age it is more improtant than ever for T'Ops to show solidarity, thats what makes the grade great (not to mention politically strong). As train crew you should be promoting the amount of incident free passenger journeys you guys carry out, not promoting your colleagues mistakes. As a manager I feel that the level of training T'Ops get these days is far less rigorous than when I passed out. IMHO, this is a contributary factor in most (not all) incidents and you can't blame the driver for that. Some managers I know even tell trainees on their road test to expect to have a SPAD in their first six months. This is madness to me, talk about setting someone up for a fall!
|
|
Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
|
Post by Phil on Mar 27, 2006 14:32:55 GMT
Some managers I know even tell trainees on their road test to expect to have a SPAD in their first six months. This is madness to me, talk about setting someone up for a fall! Isn't that a direct effect of concentration of performance over all since PPP (even if not related in this case)? If a new driver (with not enough route miles?) is forever being told to keep to time or be up before the boss, he's going to drive so near the limit he's bound to overcook it sometime (despite lip-service to defensive driving). OR, with a different type of personality, he's going to be so nervous he does the very thing he's scared of.
|
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Mar 27, 2006 15:37:27 GMT
Erm, possibly yes. To be honest though I'm not sure that front line staff and managers really give a damn about figures relating to safety. What I mean is we all strive to do the job as safely as possible and no matter how many extra performance measuring tools are put in place we can't do any better than our best (which we are already doing). Certainly more senior managers place a high emphasis on these figures as they effect their PRP, but to staff at ground level it should be business as usual. I don't know of any DMT's who have put pressure on drivers to meet performance targets. If there are managers doing that then that to me is wholly wrong and goes against everything I have ever been trained. Also, now that we have Competence Assurance in place at a line level new drivers should be being encouraged into 'corporate best practice' techniques and not pressurised by local managers. We should be concentrating on prevention of operator errors and reinforcing the message that it's 'ok' to make a mistake - just don't compound it by failing to carry out the correct procedures afterwards.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2006 19:56:23 GMT
Usually its the standard practice now that all trains that reverse via sidings must be physically checked by the driver or SA's before the train runs into the siding.
There is always one exception! Kennington Loop has been subject to various of different arrangements however - several months back I believe the HSE allowed permission for Kennington Loop reversers to not be fully detrained, as long as clear announcements were being made that this train was terminating.
I'm guessing here, but the thinking is that passengers who don't get off the train, won't actually be trapped, they'll just travel around the loop and end up travelling back on the trains Northbound journey through the Charing Cross branch.
After the 7th July events, full detrainment was reinstated. And Kennington station barely has any detrainment staff, so its often left to the driver to undertake detrainment duties him/herself. Which causes disruption to the Charing Cross branch.
And now the situation is unclear, as the rule has now been relaxed again.
An interesting point to note here though - Kennington Loop trains may not need to be fully checked, but Kennington siding reversers will need to be checked in the usual way.
|
|
|
Post by Tomcakes on Mar 27, 2006 20:03:54 GMT
And now the situation is unclear, as the rule has now been relaxed again. Of course - how much of the extra security was for show?
|
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Mar 27, 2006 20:34:15 GMT
Virtually all the extra security that LU provided post 7/7 was for customer re-assurance only and would have had little real security value. In an age where people strap bombs to themselves and enter the system with no regard for their own lives, there is nothing that LU can do to prevent it. The days of security tagging seats and checking them on turn around are gone, these people are just going to go ahead and commit acts of attrocity and a plastic tag just ain't gonna do it. The detrainment regulations we work to are nothing to do with security however, and everything to do with an HMRI instruction following the tragic death of a customer at Liverpool Street.
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,309
|
Post by Colin on Mar 27, 2006 21:22:44 GMT
Blimey! Come on Colin, every line has it's fair share of Operator errors. In this day and age it is more improtant than ever for T'Ops to show solidarity, thats what makes the grade great (not to mention politically strong). As train crew you should be promoting the amount of incident free passenger journeys you guys carry out, not promoting your colleagues mistakes. I take your comments on board, and will leave it that. As a manager I feel that the level of training T'Ops get these days is far less rigorous than when I passed out. IMHO, this is a contributary factor in most (not all) incidents and you can't blame the driver for that. Some managers I know even tell trainees on their road test to expect to have a SPAD in their first six months. This is madness to me, talk about setting someone up for a fall! Having done my training 18 months ago, i'll pass comment on this!! ;D ;D I wouldn't say the training I recieved was inferior in the slightest - yes the likely mistakes were pointed out, such as you will SPAD in the first year (I had mine at 9 months), you will b*gger up the first few defects, you will panic when your first pass alarm goes off - when it does all go wrong and as a newbie you do make silly mistakes, you get through it knowing it's par for the course. It helps you keep a cool head. It's got to better to be prepared, and know the pitfalls - as the saying goes, 'knowledge is power'.....
|
|