Extension from high barnet

[Tubeboy]

Do any members know of any plans in the past to extend the northern line[ex gnr line] beyond High Barnet? If it had, would potters bar have been the link up point or would it have veered westwards towards elstree/radlett to link up with the midland. obviously if there were plans they would have had to been pre ww2 as the infamous green belt legislation came in later, and would have rendered any plans uneconomic, as in the case with the extension from edgware.

[Deleted]

I have never read of any such plans.

The GNR/LNER would not have been interested. Potters Bar was already served by the main line, with much easier gradients; and although Radlett was served by a rival company, a service from there via Highgate and Finsbury Park would have been so slow (because of gradients again) that it would have attracted little custom.

The LT pre-war plans did not include any proposal to extend beyond High Barnet.

[mrjrt]

Quite. It's fairly easy to see why the line stops where it does when you look at it using Google Earth's terrain feature, (at the foot of a big 'ol hill). I doubt the mainline companys wanted to build a mainline tube railway back in the 19th century unless they had to

Inadvertently though, this creates an oppertunity for the tube, as of course, it could concievably continue in tunnel underneath the recent built up developments on the hill. I would imagine, should the growth of London have continued unabated, that eventually the branch would have been extended north slightly, with the piccadilly extended from cockfosters to Borhamwood via this new high barnet station, with a similar extention to Borehamwood from the Met's Stanmore branch to utilise the Northern line's huge depot at Aldenham (with interchange at Elstree). Very different plans, indeed.

[Deleted]

Certainly the new works plan in the 1930s didn't plan any extension from High Barnet, but the station was built as a through station rather than a terminus, which can still be seen today from the layout. So the plans to run further date from when the railway was first built.

[mrjrt]

Well, I had noticed the layout of High Barnet and assumed that it was just future-proofing as those old railway companies were always looking to expand back then. Lo and behold though, after quite a bit of online digging I hit apparent paydirt:

(In summary, various proposals from nearby companies, but the most likely given the EH&L's purchase by the GNR would have been an extention to Potters bar, creating an alternate loop route to Finsbury Park, and thence on into London; not actually a bad idea when you think about it in modern terms)

From www.barnet4u.co.uk/Barnet%20History/earlyyears.html

THE NORTHERN LINE The GNR was also developing suburban routes. In 1862 it became involved with the Edgware, Highgate & London Railway Company scheme for a line from Finsbury Circus through Muswell Hill to Finchley and thence northwards. The first branch, through Mill Hill East to Edgware (by then entirely GNR-owned), opened in 1867. The second, through Whetstone to Barnet, proved slower to arrive, and even when it finally opened in 1872, the location of the terminus near the foot of the hill was a severe blow .A decade earlier, in March 1862, a local committee had waited on the GNR to see if it would build a spur from its mainline, and had also decided that if possible the station should be sited at the back of the Star Coffee House 'for not only is it the most central that can be obtained for the town of Barnet itself, but it is best suited for the outlying districts...the inhabitants of Hadley could have no cause to complain; and for the residents upon Barnet-common and neighbourhood, a direct line of communication would be open to the station via Union Street'. The 'coffee house was almost opposite Union Street, and a plan was drawn up with a station rather lower, at the bottom of Moxon Street. The company opposed this and a projected spur by the Edgware Highgate & London; in 1864 it obtained parliamentary approval for a spur from its mainline to a station behind the Salisbury Arms, with a road down to an elevated Moxon Street, but then did nothing.In 1866 once again three companies submitted rival schemes. The Midland proposed a station behind Moxon Street with a line proceeding through Friern, Finchley and Golders Green to Cricklewood. The GNR suggested a loop from the mainline, running south through Potters Bar, Barnet and Totteridge to join the Edgware, Highgate & London line near Finchley; Barnet's station would have been behind Christ Church, but in the face of protest this was altered to the south end of Barrack Field, near the Black Horse on Wood Street. The Edgware, Highgate & London proposed more or less the current High Barnet branch, but with a station west of the main road at Underhill.

It was this last which received parliamentary approval, but the company was promptly swallowed by the GNR, which proposed looping the line further west to a terminus (again) near the Black Horse. This was approved but two years of inactivity-followed until, in 1869, the GNR won a two-year extension, and there were the first signs of action. By August 1870 almost all the purchasing was done, but only as far as the top, or' close to the top', of Barnet Hill. The westward continuation to Barnet Common, apparently unprotected by contract, was dropped as too expensive and 'If the line is extended at all, of which Mr Oakley (the general manager) says there is not the least doubt, it will be continued across the fields to Hadley, and thence to Potters Bar'. By May 1871 the Barnet Press reported 'The customary twigs with their scraps of paper attached, are now to be seen in the horse-fair field ...giving an approximate idea of the site of the future station'.

The branch opened in 1872, and the station (despite its lowly position) was named High Barnet. Even in the 16th century the cartographer John Norden used High, instead of Chipping, Barnet but the name remained relatively uncommon until chosen by the railway. (Chipping, however, is now staging a comeback.) As part of the London Passenger Transport Board's rationalisations, the line was incorporated into the Northern Line via a new connecting tunnel to Archway in 1939, and the previous route to Finsbury Park discontinued. The track was also electrified up to East Finchley in 1939, and to High Barnet in 1940.

If ever I get around to mapping what could have been it would appear I now have a new addition

[Deleted]

Thanks for that mrjrt: something I had not heard before.

However, I have a suspicion that the GNR (as opposed to the EH&L) never intended to go beyond Barnet. The station layout may well have been to keep the Board of Trade happy, in view of the authorised extension to Potters Bar. As for the General Manager's comments, there was plenty of "spin" in the 1870s.

From the GNR's viewpoint, a line from Barnet to Potters Bar would make little sense: the gradients would make it expensive to build and operate, and Potters Bar to Edgware via Finchley would be much slower than via Southgate.

[Ben]

I agree with mrjrt; if London had kept sprawling its likely the northern and pic would meet somewhere north. Similarly its interesting to speculate that if the Northern heights extensions had actually happened, and the W&ER had got the extension to Watford Junction, Watford would probably now be served by the Met from Croxley, the Bakerloo from the DC lines, the Jubilee from Stanmore, and the Northern from Edgeware and Mill Hill. Mill Hill to WJ would deffinately be a fantastic orbirail service. Nearly the whole of the northern parts of the underground would share 2 termini

[mrjrt]

From the GNR's viewpoint, a line from Barnet to Potters Bar would make little sense: the gradients would make it expensive to build and operate, and Potters Bar to Edgware via Finchley would be much slower than via Southgate.

Agreed, in the short term it does seem somewhat redundant, doublely so when you take into account the gradients. However, the same was said of the EH&L, and they managed with copious viaducts, cuttings and tunnels.

I would imagine it would have served as the local services and frieght route, leaving more capacity on the existing, faster route for long-haul trains and expresses. Having the connection would also have eased operational matters no doubt, not to mention the redundancy should disruption occur, but I digress, I'm going waaaay off topic there.

[mrjrt]

Just thought I'd add something that came to me whilst doing a spot of travel routing...if the line had been completed it would've had a nice symmetry with the Hertford loop, abet on a slightly smaller scale. I've also heard of GNER services being diverted via the loop when engineering works were present, so in some small measure having a loop does make some sense